Yes, in the context of the whole game length, not for 1v1 unrealistic, static test or cherrypicked scenario that does not include opponents actual, realistic army composition on field.
For the gazzilionth time, penals early game is NOT a problem. Its their (lack of)scaling into mid and especially late game, where a combination of them being outnumbered, having high reinforce cost, having tiny received accuracy vet and arrival of AoE damage and opposing infantry weapon upgrades makes them bad as it is impossible to inflict greater attrition then they themselves receive.
No one said they should be cheaper.
They suffer from exact same problem cons did prior to receiving late game upgrade with the difference being penals are actually reliable in EARLY game, but only early game and relaying too heavily on elite infantry -AND T-70- to cover for their weaknesses.
Then do you have an actual suggestion as to how to improve them? Because I've already made the suggestion that they would benefit from an ATV-40 upgrade (Think similar to Volk STGs), and/or an universal upgrade that reduces their reinforcement cost. Perhaps even giving them a real grenade along with this.
Other options are to slash their costs, take away several SVTs, and turn them effectively into SVT conscripts out of the gate, with the option to then upgrade further to what they are now, with a further upgrade later on to improve them even further. Universal or individual upgrade is debatable.
In either case a slight RA improvement (Possibly tied to one of these upgrades rather than Vet) would also be good for them.
It's been demonstrated that they do compete with Upgraded Grens in this very thread, incidentally, in combat terms. Penals are a very jack-of-all-trades AI unit, so its hard to determine precisely how to "fix" them.
If you're willing to take the micro tax you can also offset their high reinforcement cost by using your Conscripts to merge into them, if you consider a ~9% reduction in costs worth it.
Affordability of unit directly affects its combat effectiveness, because in infantry case, field presence of a unit is quite important, cost and timing influence that effectiveness.
This is why penals are alright unit, but dead as meta one, while PFs are being spammed everywhere above 1v1.
Since you don't start with premade army matching opponents premade army for the pop and cost, but need to field it first, you have to take into account timing, cost and what opponent will have on field as well.
Penals will ALWAYS be outnumbered, they will win 1v1 engagements, but they aren't going to be engaging like that past first 2-3 minutes, because its impossible to field enough of them.
And, again, we've made a full circle, where T-70 comes to the rescue, balancing that out in mid game.
But i keep seeing you make the argument that Penals "Have no AI upgrade" and that "Their Vet accuracy doesnt help them!".
We can agree that Penals need to be looked at in the affordability department (But if they win 1-on-1 easily Vs Volks and Grens they can't be near the same price as either, especially considering they require no Muni investment to be at maximum power)
Penals need a niche before we can really consider just making them cheaper. They're good at all ranges. Soviets need work, both buffing and nerfing.
About the tests:
-Penals bleed much more, which is important because real engagements aren't supposed to end with a squad wipe.
-Grenadiers are considered the weakest mainline infantry.
-Grenadiers have very good team weapons supporting them. Penals require you give those up.
-Penals have much less utility than Conscripts.
I think, if you really want to avoid the T-70, you should make sure that the other units are on-meta. Conscript spam, maybe Shocks to make up anti-infantry capability. I would rush T4 in this case, and would consider T1 and the SU-76 to be wastes of fuel.
I don't think Grens are the weakest mainlines at all, honestly. They're very good at what they do, which is provide good damage at long range, with a long-ranged snare, and strong (but situational) grenade.
Personally it's a toss up between Volks and Cons, with Volks having a significant edge (Away from being the weakest) due to their STG powerspike, and Con's requirement to pay for AT and Molotov tech. Cons have the edge in Utility, and lategame strength, however. (at range).
I'd put Cons at the bottom, all things considered. I think they maybe ought to be a little cheaper, have an easier way to access their Molo/ATnade, and Penals should be rebalanced.
It was a close call, they are kind of even I'd say.
It's... sort of understandable given Penal's greater cost, though Grens require the Muni investment to gain their LMG, and are really only effective at long range. Penals are an odd unit. I'm still advocating for ATV upgrades for them.
I would like to contest YOU on this. I made a little experiment, duel between Grenadiers and Penals.
Following setups:
5 rounds of combat, both units in heavy cover, no LoF obstructions. Grenadiers all with LMG upgrade.
Long range
Close Combat
This proves you wrong. Actually, the opposite is true. A penal squad beats an upgraded grenadier at both long and close range when both are at vet 2. So I would say that Penals do scale into the mid-game quite well.
I didn't test at vet-2, rather at vet-3, where Grens won with a single model remaining rather consistently (at long range), so its interesting to see how they do at 2. it seems strange for Penals to beat LMG Grens at long range whatever the vet, though. That's kind of Gren's "optimal range".
Thanks for your thoughts, I would like to keep this on Build orders however. But we did a seimilar experiment with the same result. Which is quite interesting.
Really Penals are undervalued lategame. Their issues stem from their difficulty in fitting into a build, due to having to build T1, and their early expense. This is coupled with their (relatively) high reinforcement cost meaning they bleed a lot.
They do in fact still output quite good damage, for no investment outside of MP.
Regarding build orders: Im afraid there's not a lot I can contribute, I don't play Soviet much. I would think integration of early ZIS would be helpful, it's a very powerful unit, though you then need a way to keep axis infantry away from it. (But if we're talking Ostruppen then that's not as much a concern.) Its barrage is ludicrously good against team weapons, and will provide a very unpleasant experience for static Ostruppen play as well. Early ZIS also means that Scout car play from the OST player is significantly blunted, particularly if you were to (somehow) have two in your build. This leaves you rather more vulnerable to infantry pushes however, given your then-inherent lack of actual line infantry.
The M42 would do the same job (And is used in quite a few 2v2 games I've seen), though the short range of the shotgun hampers it a little, and it's not ideal against heavier armour.
I did a bit of testing on Penals yesterday, and their combat performance at vet 3 is a lot better than I expected it to be. Unsurprisingly they don't beat Grens or Guards at 35 range behind green cover, but they're consistently able to beat 7man cons with 2-3 models left at that range. I think Penals would be a pretty good unit if they were made cheaper, had their early performance reduced slightly to ensure they don't walk all over Grens/Volks (Which they do unit-for unit, but are hampered by price), and had some sort of AI upgrade lategame.
My suggestion would be to give them an ATV-40 upgrade, combined with a model cost reduction, though I don't know if such a thing is really possible. No model exists, but the gun is practically identical visually to an SVT-40.
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