Pershing blows - USF Heavy Cavalry

Can U imagine it being buffed and supported by Jackson(s)?

That's a lot of popcap next to 3 rifles (most used opening), 2 real echelons, AA HT, maybe AT gun, maybe rangers, ambulance. Pak howi is needed in case of emergency blobs... If you plan to fit Jacksons with the Pershing next to that, good luck. Maybe on some 150 popcap maps.

You don't have to test it, I can tell you that you can have 1 pershing and MAYBE 1 Jackson, depending on what you have lost during the game. I seldom have squad wipes. If they do occur, it's due to some RNG mortar shell or RNG rifle nade from grens (that rifle nade will either wipe a spread out squad or barely damage a clumped up one, it's really RNGish). So if I don't lose anything and I have 3 rifles, officer, 1 or 2 pak howis, AA HT, ambulance, one ranger zook squad.


So that infantry + team weapons + AA HT comes out at 80-90 pop cap with Pershing. So that leaves 10 popcap for JacksonS and ShermanS. Good luck.

True story: I used to team kill my own units sometimes so I could fit a jackson on the field next to the pershing cause the game was getting prolonged and a couple of recon planes spotted massed tigers and panthers. You know that point in a 3v3 game where nobody can really do a push or flank cause it's 3v3 and not 1v1 and there are a sh**ton of units on the field. Well, axis are at an advantage here cause their heavies > usf/brit heavy. If you don't have a soviet player on the team, you really need to end it before the game reaches a point of "fuel is not a problem, pop cap is".

EDIT: the "fuel is no longer a problem" is dangerous vs good axis players. Bad axis players will just run in your units head on, taking the first hits and dying and crying on chat how Tigers and KT are useless and super weak compared to TDs which CAN kill them. A good axis player will mass tanks, have a couple of obers/pgrens, something to repair and blitzkrieg your ass. I've seen people throw their grens/volks, raketen, pak40s, etc. and just let them die. It took me plenty of lost games to realize that they were just opening up the pop cap for more heavies. Now, when the game has reached 40+ minutes, and the enemy is just capping points without any respect the the lives of those men, I know what's about to come. A LOT of times you would kill their expendables, only so that 3-4 minutes later you encounter a Hail Marry of tanks on your flanks/front, everywhere. Now, if axis starts using that old Soviet technique of "Meat Grinder", I just start pushing to their base. Most of the time they are NOT rebuilding the said units but bluffing. That's my own experience.

So no, you won't fit multiple jacksons in an average game, next to the pershing.

am i the only one who uses my completely free crews to heal my other armour when needed?

am i the only one who uses my completely free crews to heal my other armour when needed?

I use my completely free crews to not only heal my other armour but my allies' (Pun intended) armour too. Sometimes it can get them killed because said player rushes the tank out before repairs are finished though.

am i the only one who uses my completely free crews to heal my other armour when needed?

I assume everyone does it. A lot of micro needed and you do lose field presence when they are repairing. I remember losing 3 of my repair crews to a random LeFH shell that was a product of huge scatter. I still have nightmares of LeFH when all my squads wanted to do was repair friendly armour

So no, you won't fit multiple jacksons in an average game, next to the pershing.

One plus buffed pershing will probably do the Job

I'm not a fan of popcap balance but I agree with You when it comes to your popcap count.

I assume everyone does it. A lot of micro needed and you do lose field presence when they are repairing. I remember losing 3 of my repair crews to a random LeFH shell that was a product of huge scatter. I still have nightmares of LeFH when all my squads wanted to do was repair friendly armour

Well, one probably shouldn't think that losing a free crew is worse than losing an engineer doing the same job (such as the OKW sturmpio, for example).

Well, one probably shouldn't think that losing a free crew is worse than losing an engineer doing the same job (such as the OKW sturmpio, for example).

Actually, it is. Only you can recrew it, you lose a lot of time and resources trying to get it back up. You need to crew with rifles, then decrew while REs build, then put them back inside. RNG will be RNG. Losing pio is no big deal, losing sturmpio is a big deal. But then again, sturmpios are quite durable with their target size. Plus they wreck every unit early game.

Not a balance argument but some advice, you can put a (fresh) RET squad in a Sherman or a Jackson and they will be vet 3 after just a few shots. A vet 3 5-men RET squad should easily be enough to keep a Pershing running considering all the other tanks have their own crews.

Actually, it is. Only you can recrew it, you lose a lot of time and resources trying to get it back up. You need to crew with rifles, then decrew while REs build, then put them back inside. RNG will be RNG. Losing pio is no big deal, losing sturmpio is a big deal. But then again, sturmpios are quite durable with their target size. Plus they wreck every unit early game.

Well, think about the micro required to make any pio accompany the vehicle at the time repairs are needed. Also sturms just die as easily as any other engie while repairing. Their extra stats don't really matter there. Basically, having the crew is always a bonus and it is not really reflected in the price of the vehicle. Using crew or crews can give a USF player advantage if used correctly. Many strats can revolve around the correct crew use. You can often deal some damage to the enemy, absorb some shots and head back for repairs. If you do it with many vehicles You can outrepair your opponent. From my experience, a sight of panther being in repairs most of the game time and rarely full health is quite common. In 1v1 pershing as it is, is quite ok for my taste.

A vet 3 5-men RET squad should easily be enough to keep a Pershing running considering all the other tanks have their own crews.

Single RE is never enough for Pershing to work efficiently. REs, for some reason, has only 10.5 repair speed at vet3. That's 30.5 seconds of repair time for just 2 ATG shots that'll most likely penetrate Pershing's 270 armor (especially if we consider it's late-game and ATGs are vetted up). For comparison 2 vet0 pios with minesweeper upgrade have 15.2 repair speed, meaning, they can repair a Tiger that took 2 ATG shots in 21 seconds. 2 vet3 pios w/ minesweepers and 5-men can repair it in 11 seconds but that's a very rare occurrence, of course.

Pershing either needs its crew back or some form of crew repair ability (Slow but full repairs like Soviets or fast but limited repairs like OKW/UKF) for free or for a small munition cost. The need to buy second RE is a big disadvantage for Pershing as of now.

Single RE is never enough for Pershing to work efficiently. REs, for some reason, has only 10.5 repair speed at vet3. That's 30.5 seconds of repair time for just 2 ATG shots that'll most likely penetrate Pershing's 270 armor (especially if we consider it's late-game and ATGs are vetted up). For comparison 2 vet0 pios with minesweeper upgrade have 15.2 repair speed, meaning, they can repair a Tiger that took 2 ATG shots in 21 seconds. 2 vet3 pios w/ minesweepers and 5-men can repair it in 11 seconds but that's a very rare occurrence, of course.

Pershing either needs its crew back or some form of crew repair ability (Slow but full repairs like Soviets or fast but limited repairs like OKW/UKF) for free or for a small munition cost. The need to buy second RE is a big disadvantage for Pershing as of now.

USF are able to wrangle their other vehicle's crews for repairs, though, and USF having a second RE is no different to OST having a second pioneer, is it? REs are also able to double as a minor AT platform when given Zooks.

The population space required for the second RE is even less a concern for USF, as well, given their ability to decrew (All other) vehicles to temporarily increase their effective popcap.

USF are able to wrangle their other vehicle's crews for repairs, though, and USF having a second RE is no different to OST having a second pioneer, is it? REs are also able to double as a minor AT platform when given Zooks.

The population space required for the second RE is even less a concern for USF, as well, given their ability to decrew (All other) vehicles to temporarily increase their effective popcap.

I think the general consensus that the pershing suffers from anything above 1v1 due to increase armour and at presence.

Likewise, using your vehical crews to repair your pershing risk increases considerably every gamemode from that point due to increase presence of units and especially artillery. Also I hate sacrificing field presence.

Getting fresh rear echelons isn't too much of a problem its just feel abit unnatural . Ill be interested to try sanders trick through if I can get any armor on field.

USF are able to wrangle their other vehicle's crews for repairs, though, and USF having a second RE is no different to OST having a second pioneer, is it? REs are also able to double as a minor AT platform when given Zooks.

The population space required for the second RE is even less a concern for USF, as well, given their ability to decrew (All other) vehicles to temporarily increase their effective popcap.

OST needs another pio by default for any tank in the late-game, it's not specifically tied to having a Tiger or not. USF, on the other hand, needs a RE purely for Pershing. This practically adds 250MP cost to Pershing itself. When you compare it to mediums USF can field that doesn't need this extra cost, Pershing isn't a viable choice.

Although, viability of pop abuse is off-topic, I'd like to talk about it, too since you've mentinoed it.
Pop abuse is problematic in a lot of ways. Sure, you get more vehicles by doing it but every time you need to reinforce your infantry you need to decrew at least one of your tanks to do so, which effectively decreases your active combat force throughout the game and adds extra micro tax. Depending on how short the intervals between reinforcements, extra micro tax from decrew/recrews can be disastrous in late-game unless you've 200APM or something.

I love how people just assume USF has 250mp lying around just to make the 640mp 230fuel tank with 270 armour repair on time.

I love how people just assume USF has 250mp lying around just to make the 640mp 230fuel tank with 270 armour repair on time.

I generally keep my rear echelon alive but its naive to think that loosing said echelon that getting a new one won't have an impact like loosing any other engineer.

I generally keep my rear echelon alive but its naive to think that loosing said echelon that getting a new one won't have an impact like loosing any other engineer.

I meant 250mp for buying a 2nd RE which you otherwise wouldn’t need.

I think the general consensus that the pershing suffers from anything above 1v1 due to increase armour and at presence.

Likewise, using your vehical crews to repair your pershing risk increases considerably every gamemode from that point due to increase presence of units and especially artillery. Also I hate sacrificing field presence.

Getting fresh rear echelons isn't too much of a problem its just feel abit unnatural . Ill be interested to try sanders trick through if I can get any armor on field.

Agreeable. The issue with it having a Vehicle crew is that it will then allow you to make multiple Pershings. Unless it has a special "Pershing crew" that counts towards the heavy tank limit. I wonder if that's been considered? The tank clearly needs a bit of a look at.

OST needs another pio by default for any tank in the late-game, it's not specifically tied to having a Tiger or not. USF, on the other hand, needs a RE purely for Pershing. This practically adds 250MP cost to Pershing itself. When you compare it to mediums USF can field that doesn't need this extra cost, Pershing isn't a viable choice.

Although, viability of pop abuse is off-topic, I'd like to talk about it, too since you've mentinoed it.
Pop abuse is problematic in a lot of ways. Sure, you get more vehicles by doing it but every time you need to reinforce your infantry you need to decrew at least one of your tanks to do so, which effectively decreases your active combat force throughout the game and adds extra micro tax. Depending on how short the intervals between reinforcements, extra micro tax from decrew/recrews can be disastrous in late-game unless you've 200APM or something.

I'm not sure if "Pop abuse" is something that can really be solved adequately. I believe the balance team have decided that it's "part of the faction". The only way around it, really, is to give each vehicle a bespoke crew with the same popcost as the tank... at which point you're inviting people to murder their crews to use REs in their place, or some other exploity way to retain this benefit.

I love how people just assume USF has 250mp lying around just to make the 640mp 230fuel tank with 270 armour repair on time.

You're doing this thing where you're implying that's A: All REs are good for, and B: Somehow this investment the USF are making is absurd compared to the 200mp (And potentially 30muni) investment that Ostheer arguably always must make?