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Kind of back to square one. This usage of MGs has always been a component of the game. But strong t0 units and powerful mortars have not.
The USF mortar is indeed a critical error being t0. The availability of strong indirect fire without having to make a strategic decision is what makes USF, and somewhat Brits just problematic by default.
Soviets at the very least have to make the choice between their first 2 tiers. However with T2 having maxims and ZiS, (and with Guard Motor having the 120mm), Soviet access to mortars is really not lacking at all.
Allies having larger squad sizes and superior infantry are supposed to be comparable to the superior suppression platforms of the MG42. But the MG42 is typically pre-countered by any Allied build or strategy.
And this means Ostheer typically has to get a mortar themselves, which is also available early, to try and counter the mortars/draw mortar fire from infantry/MGs.
(And OKW is just lulz with a late MG34 and no mortar at all.)
But I think it's worth pointing out that I would argue that "Soviets v Ostheer" is an entirely different game than "USF v OKW" or any matchup involving the Brits. |
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Penals wreck Grens. If both are in green cover and at range, penals beat lmg grens in a 1v1. Unvetted Penals beat vet 2 Grens.
Protip: Never 1v1 allied infantry with Grens. Unless they are conscripts, or you can get the drop on some Tommies out of cover. But even then the matchup is wildly inconsistent.
Volks are capable of 1v1ing conscripts and rifles with surprisingly consistency so long as they have the same or better cover. However at close quarters without the benefits of cover rifles or in open cover rifles will beat volks with pretty good reliability. Conscripts kinda just lose but sometimes win at close range versus Volks.
So here's another angle: cover. Cover is HUGE in this game. The better cover pretty much always wins. Moving will also spell defeat for just about any squad except Penals. Penals get stronger as they lose models and pretty much wreck face at 2man.
Yellow cover reduces incoming fire accuracy by 50%.
Green cover reduces accuracy AND damage from incoming fire by 50%.
If cover is matched, then yellow cover actually works against axis squads. Reduction of accuracy impacts small numbered squads relying on fewer, stronger hits far more than weapons like SVTs and Garands (or BARs for that matter).
Green cover, however, is what gives Axis the real advantage. They need that damage reduction bonus to survive the onslaught. But to keep in mind they have to somehow stay in cover and stay at range.
The fact that cover is negated at less than 10 meters is also HUGE. Damage and accuracy reduction go out the window. Penals or Rifles in a group can afford to take losses and even have a squad retreat, but once closed in, their damage output just can't be matched.
This is why MGs are so important to this game. They are what prevent the enemy from charging out of cover and into point blank range.
Protip: Don't use MGs on the frontline to fight enemy infantry. Use your MGs to cover your infantry. |
Grens-cons match up is equad. Both have thier ranges where they can win.
Actually they don't. They are wildly inconsistent. They equalize with Grens in most cases, and the fact that they can build their own green cover really helps them out. Surprisingly conscripts don't always win at close range either. The trend is certainly that Grens win at long range and Cons at close range but it's highly unpredictable and unreliable.
But most people take the majority of their damage moving around in red/open cover instead of fighting at distances in cover. That's what decides most engagements. But actually Conscripts are surprisingly good at max range in cover compared to fighting on top of Grens. But that shouldn't be news to anyone: units in cover are far superior to moving units not in cover.
Conscripts pretty reliably lose to Volks at all ranges in all forms of cover and out. Helps explain why maxim spam is so preferable. |
You are goddamn incorrect, my friend. Most of DPS in 4 member squad (except pgrens) lies in their LMG.
Grens and Obersoldaten are the only LMG squads the Axis have. G43s and Infrared StGs shouldn't just be discounted. Also, there's a very crucial part of the game that exists before Battle Phase 2 that grens operate in. Also, IAllied LMGs will often be tearing through OKW before Obers hit the field.
No matter what model you lose, lmg will be always there. This means that your squad can never have less than ~50% of MAX DPS because 50% of squad DPS lies in lmg (or even more in obers lmg).
Which means the bigger LMG squad wins. Four man squads lose by default under this condition. 
Also lmg is far better than rifles because it targets single model, killing it and decreasing enemy DPS constantly. Rifles can fire at 5 different models at once, not hurting his DPS at all.
They can also fire at one model. This is the cause of much inconsistency in infantry combat.
I really don't think 4 man squads are fundamentally flawed, but I think LMGs and SMGs are a bit too prominent and powerful in this game. The power and availability of indirect fire is another huge factor.
I feel like the mechanics of LMGs and other weapons like mortar shell AoE and tank guns v infantry are worth more attention than squad size. |
Here:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=878578557
I spent an evening running through rounds on the map. There were some interesting patterns that I found. I suggest people give it a shot, especially with Janne's Cheat Mod.
Based on my experiences this evening: there is very little consistency in infantry combat battles. There are a few identifiable trends though. Mind you, this is all vet 0 units I'm talking about in 1v1 matchups.
Conscripts are wildly inconsistent but tend to be on the losing end at all ranges. Their battles won are often razor thin.
Rifles tend to win most engagements, but Volks seem to give the most consistent run for their money as long as cover is involved. Rifles seem to lose randomly, but win with 3 members left very consistently.
Penals wreck volks and grens alike. They often don't even lose models. Even in the times they lose models early, they kick into overdrive and wreck the volks and grens even harder.
Tommies pretty reliably lose to volks and grens at close range. They win big at long range.
Grens and Volks alike get wrecked at close quarters, and yellow cover does not seem to be a friend of either. Mid range is very inconsistent for both. Long range is rather inconsistent. The only decisive victorys for Volks and Grens ever seem to be against conscripts.
But something worth noting was this:
CQC battles were over in 20-40 seconds.
Open cover battles over by 1 minute. Yellow cover Penal battles usually all over by this point.
Yellow cover battles over by 1:30-2 minutes. Green cover Penal battles usually all over by this point.
Green cover battles over by 3-4 minutes. |
- Make the Flak Half track set up time 0, like every other team.
Agreed. 
- Give field gun smoke shells to help clear out garisons.
Agreed.
- Fix the stormtropper accuracy on SturmPios with SHreks (or allow 2 upgrade like Panzer Grens).
Possibly. I still think Obers are the natural fit for Schrecks. I could work with that idea though, especially if Obers end up remaining in T3.
- Balance the Panzer 2 so it's viable against Stuart/AEC/T70 like every other light tank.
This is actually the most challenging idea. AEC is pretty much a Puma, the T70 is closer to the Luchs, and the Stuart kind of occupies both roles. WBP is going to change all their performances to levels that will be hard to predict once/if they hit live.
There was a reason vCoH had a 2cm Puma that upgraded into an AT role.  The Luchs can't really do the same so it really is just a mobile AI unit. At best it could be made to 50/50 against T70s. The AEC is just designed to kill light vehicles, and the Stuart being killed by the Luchs would cripple USF captain tier and gives the Luchs incredible field presence on USF.
I think the T70 and Luchs should be rather equivalent, but this is why I think it's important for the Luchs and Puma to be together in a tier. The Puma should always beat a Stuart and 50/50 with AECs. I really don't know what the landscape of LVs are going to look like after WBP hits though.
And a maybe would be to improve the moving accuracy of the P4, it can't hit anything if it isn't sitting perfectly still.
True. It might be worth it to increase its base accuracy and reducing the accuracy it gets with vet a bit. I've been using OKW P4s recently and even got some to vet 4 and 5. The get the accuracy I expect them to have at vet 0 at that point. Their routine inability to handle enemy tanks is one of the factors that led me to consider making a Stub P4.
That's it. I really feel it wouldn't be that complicated. God knows how Relic have taken so long to do some basic tweaks.
Hey, I'm all for what you've suggested. If bringing in a weaker version of Obers earlier doesn't really work, and if a 250HT or MortarHT is too much then you have some solid suggestions. |
Stopped to read here. You have no idea how FRPs are treated by the community, haven't you?
Oh I am well aware of how they are treated. I'm not a great fan of FRPs personally, but I do think they could be worked with.
I am more than willing to work with ideas I don't personally like if I think it might stimulate more dynamic gameplay or spur decent discussion about the mechanic. Personally I think there should be no FRPs in the game, but I don't see that happening. I think it's worth seeing what adjustments or changes could be made and if it reveals anything other than FRPs being a currently poorly implemented mechanic.
But I do think it'd be good for players to designate allied HQs as a retreat point, especially for things like 3v3s on 4v4 maps.
This eliminates all the disadvantages, what OKW have and make them flawless. And also makes Ost useless (MG from start, Obers with 2xshreck, halftruck).
Obers in T1 
Volks with StG44+MP40 
I will love play this design, but who will play for allies again this?
Yes, it does eliminate disadvantages from OKW. However, Obers would essentially be Stormtroopers in performance in this scenario.
My hope is the strength of HMG42s, Gren LMG42s, and Panzergren StGs stand on their own well enough. Also, the PAK. Also the 222. Plus StuGs. And the Sniper.
My goal is to get OKW back to a resource starved faction through expensive upgrades and abilities.
I think it's also worth noting that this 250 HT/MortarHT wouldn't be a reinforcing halftrack. It'd be more like an unarmed or clone of the Soviet M3 Scout Car.
I like your MG34/raketen requirement idea, but I think you mean Pak 38 and not Pak 39.
I also suggest a smoke ability be added to leig instead of the sturms.
I do mean the Pak38, thanks for the correction.
I am also suggesting a leig smoke ability in addition in this. I've already made that for a mod before so I'd just harvest that.
Interesting, but i see some design problems:
1. If SdKfz 250 will be added to the OKW, it need to add all OKW camoflages to it's model.
2. Second problem (if this unit going to have MG 34/42 before Mortar upgrade) - MG going to fly over the model, because there is no mount for it.
3. Pak 39 (idk what is it, have found information only about capture russisn 76mm guns) require a new model.
I am sorry, but Relic is lazy in creating of new models. They even choose to use old M5 HT(because it has M45 turret in the model) for USF instead of upgrade new M3 HT, and add to it this M45 turret.
Yeah the skin issue is a real one, and probably what will kill this idea in the hangar. Although since the unit already exists for Ostheer, I can't imagine it's impossible, or even hard.
I am envisioning a clone of the 250 that has no weapon. If I can manage it I want see if I can have a gunner only when its garrisoned with a squad. I've had similar ambitions with the Soviet M3 Scout Car.
And yeah, I meant the Pak38. Pak39 is typo. |
About the T2, I don't know man. Like, I'm the man of Obers. I need my Obers on the field and in my case, I would take T2, get Obers and Puma and maybe the Mortar HT along the way. Without Obers, OKW will have a hard time fighting infantry warfare late-game, in my opinion so yeah, maybe just me, but I still think the second version would renders T1 quite useless compared to T2.
I juggled with the FlakHT being in T2 and Obers in T1. Which may be more optimal. The thing is a T2 FlakHT is kind of useless. OKW tiers and unit composition are such that some unit ends up being in a terribly awkward position.
The other option is the 250 Halftrack be available in T1 which then has to upgrade into a mortar HT. But then the ISG really gets overshadowed. Also the IR HT is kind of a lump of a unit to fit into the tiers.
I may end up going with a sorta version 1.5:
T0: Volks, Sturmpioneers, Kubelwagen, MG34
T1/2:Raketenwerfer
T1: ISG, FlakHT, IR HT, Obers
T2: Puma, Luchs, Mortar HT
T3: Panther, JP4, Panzer 4, Stuka zu Fuss, (Unlocks Obers LMG34) |
Oh yeah, about the Volks' upgrade, giving them full-on MP40s is a great idea. However, how you consider their veterancy? Cause if you look at it, they aren't meant to be assault unit (Low RA buffs, but high accuracy increase, which were meant for long-range units, rather than CQC unit). For the MP40s upgrade to work, you need to relook at their vet, especially their RA buffs through vet (0.8 is lowest they can get, and that's not very good for CQC)
True, their RA may not be the best, but neither are assault grens. Volks at least get fausts and can be given smoke cover by sturms in this scenario. Also, the idea is that Obers, being cheaper, might have a larger role, alongside a more available MG34. The volks would be more 'defenders of the MG' than assault units.
V1:There's no need for the Stub P4 in T2, actually, leave the P4 in T3 as it is) and pressure them.
Fair point. I like the Stub P4, but perhaps too much for PE nostalgia reasons. I still feel like a stock Stub P4 has a role in this game though. But then again... Hotchkiss.
This one is kinda weird cause basically, why would you even want to go T1 anyways? Healing at base already, Elite infantry, indirect-fire and LVs are all available at T2 while T1 is basically just very lackluster compared to T2. Yeah you can't get Raketen anymore from T0 but Puma and Obers with Schrecks are always there to cover and if not, even better than Raketen (You can always get 2 Obers, 1 with Schrecks, 1 with LMG34, the same way you get Pzgrens)
Hence the Pak39 suggestion. The Raketen may not be so worth it. But the T1 would still have the Forward Retreat Point unlock. If anything in this version adjusting the cost of T1 down and T2 up would be warranted. (Or even making OKW tech go T1>T2>T3... But I'd rather give OKW a fourth tier over that.)
But the idea here is that T2 is very much an appealing option. But Pumas and Panzerschrecks cost fuel and munitions. Your T2 anti-tank is much harder to replace if lost. Raketens (or Paks) are manpower only, which can be pretty important. |
I don't know if you, or anybody else knows if it's possible to have infantry mounted on the 250 throw smoke grenades >.>
Could be a modified version of tank nades only enabled when units with smoke nades garrison. I dunno though.
I'm a bit perplexed about lumping the stubby P4 together in the same tier with Luchs. Given that both are supposed to be anti-infantry, why would you pick one over the other? On the other hand, I can clearly see that putting a decent AI-related unit in T2 makes backteching to T2 all that much more enticing.
That's something I've juggled with. The T2 Stubby idea is a holdover from an older mod I made that incorporated Battle Phases with OKW. It required the final battle phase in that.
In this sense I'd have the P4 retain most of the fuel cost, or be reduced to around 100. The Luchs could even be cheaper. More of a Quad M5 v T70 type relationship. Although I do agree that the cost alone may not be enough though to keep the P4 from overshadowing.
The other question I have, is what role do you have envisioned for the ISG, if OKW is to get access to the mortar halftrack? Currently, the ISG is super-useless vs a mobile force, whereas it's super-annoying when spammed and camped.
The ISG would be indirect fire that costs only manpower, which is important. The smoke barrage would be a perk. (I'm not sure if the MortarHT would have incendiary barrage or smoke or not.) To be honest I'd want to see it be cheaper than 330 to more like 280 or 300. But going back, I have always favored the Pak Howie and ISG being mobile artillery with high range and good barrages. I have also leaned towards removing their autofire and having them be more like weak ML-20s/LeFHs that can move faster than a stuka strike's AoE. |
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