The reason for the Stub P4 is to let it be in T2. It allows OKW to have a tank with strong AI capabilities, like the P4 already has, but prevent it from being able to hurt heavier tanks. A Panzer 4 in the Flak HQ probably doesn't work with stub.
If obers are nerfed down to the 360 or 320-340 like you said depending on the balance changes OKW may have a difficult time stopping CQC units of high cost. Shocks and rangers with thompsons come to mind.
If Volks exchange rifles for MP40s, they will be more effective at CQC. Infantry with rifles are food for SMGs.
Unsure about the pfaust changes. I assume they're going to be the 25 muni pfaust from WBP instead of the current 35.
This assumes a 35 muni panzerfaust.
I don't see the reason behind the KT nerf unless it's going to be buffed respectivly. Tank destroyers can deal with the KT easily as long as they're not USF. Other than that interesting changes, unsure how they'd play out but definatly food for thought.
This is mostly directly at the WBP team than anything. I dunno if it's a worthwhile change.
OberKommando West having being designed, redesigned, broken, fixed, and refixed, is in a little convoluted a position in CoH2 as far as the factions go. There are many ways CoH2's faction design and balance could've gone, and plenty of ways it could go.
In light of some recent discussions on OKW and the post-WBP world of CoH2 I thought I'd offer some blueprints for putting OKW into a strong, but balanced position. I offer explanations and reasoning, and will be happy to discuss things. These ideas are very much a rough draft.
After WBP hits, I intend to build a(nother) mod that will implement some form of these ideas to explore. Mod Tools are also being glitchy, and I'm hoping that'll be fixed once WBP is over. Until then, I figure I'd offer them up for interested eyes and minds.
When you look at the grand scheme of things I don't think it's all that radical of a set of ideas.
First and foremost: fixing OKW T0.
-Allow HQ to upgrade either medics or repair pios. (Could also allow OKW T1 and T2 to research either medics or repair pios.)
-Swap the MG34 requirements to the Raketenwerfer. (Alternately, replace the Raketen with a Pak39. Raketens make for a good/better doctrinal unit TBH.)
-Sturmpioneers to get smoke grenades instead of panzerschrecks. Either a 30(ish) muni upgrade to unlock smoke grenade, and the grenade costs 15 muni, or no unlock and the smoke grenade costs 30/35 muni.
-No unlock requirements for panzerfaust. With AT delayed for OKW, Panzerfausts should be readily available... (to drain those munis.)
-Give volks vet 4 panzerfaust damage (160 instead of 120) but reduce the snare threshold to 25% instead of 75%. Increase snare threshold to normal at vet 4. This makes them more dangerous for light vehicles without making them as large a threat against tanks.
-Increase volks panzerfaust range. Something like 5 or 10. (Less snaring, more potential finishing shot.)
-Volksgrenadiers should exchange their remaining rifles for mp40s when getting StGs. They need their upgrade to give them a real role change that works with Obers more than Sturms. And this arguably synergizes even better with Sturms armed with smoke instead of schrecks. (IMO 5 MP40s or 4 and 1 StG are best.)
So far: New HQ upgrade, switch the requirements of two units, change two units upgrades, and adjust OKW's panzerfaust. Not the craziest set of changes, but now the fate of the panzerschreck remains.
From here there are two good routes I think to go down:
First the 'safe' route.
Obers get x2 panzerschreck upgrade. (Could also give them Panzerfausts with vet.)
Additionally:
Reduce T1 FRP upgrade to 200mp.
Give ISGs a free (or 15 muni) smoke barrage.
KT call-in to require 100mp 20-40 fuel upgrade from HQ, unlocked only when all 3 tiers are built and alive.
Then the not so 'safe' routes: (Tier adjustment and giving OKW some unit adjustments.)
Reduce T1 FRP to 200 mp and/or allow any Truck HQ to become a FRP after it is research. (Designating an allied HQ as a retreat point would be lovely for all factions in the game IMO.)
250 Halftrack as stock unit. No reinforcing, but able to upgrade into Mortar Halftrack. (Alternately, just a MortarHT for OKW.)
Could possibly replace OKW Panzer 4 with Stubnose P4.
Reduce Obersoldaten cost to 360 or even the 320-340 range and reduce their performance accordingly. They should be made to be closer to Stormtroopers in cost and performance.
Obers get x2 panzerschreck upgrade. Panzerfaust with vet 1. (Maybe instead of the deathsmoke grenade, as fun as it is.)
Give ISGs a free (or 15 muni) smoke barrage.
KT call-in 100mp 20-40 fuel upgrade.
Tier Version 2:
T0: Volks, Sturmpioneers, Kubelwagen, MG34
T1: ISG, FlakHT, IR HT, Raketenwerfer (Pak39?)
T2: Puma, Luchs, Obers, Mortar HT
T3: Panther, JP4, Stuka zu Fuss, Panzer 4 (Stub?)
(Unlocks Obers LMG34)
Each tech tier has indirect fire and access to a form of AT.
T3 cost could be reduced 40-80 fuel and have the Flak gun and Panther disabled. A 40-80 fuel upgrade to activate the Flak could unlock the Panther.
Resource conversion could possibly make a comeback for OKW, but through the HQ, and locked through an HQ upgrade.
HQ could possibly also contain an upgrade that unlocks panzerfausts for Volks and/or Obers.
(More of an aside point: FlakHT gun performance could be adjusted to mirror USF AAHT, remove or greatly reduce 'setup' time on gun, simply have the requirement be that it not be moving to fire. Might benefit the unit's function no matter what other changes occur.)
And so there's my set of blueprints for making OKW a workable faction. Feel free to pick it apart or discuss it. I'll be building an OKW redesign mod based off these ideas (and the results of any debate) once WBP hits.
As far as the thread is concerned, both Brits and OKW share a similar fate in the following aspect:
- Both greatly outscale EFA factions, if they make it to the end-game
I highly disagree. "Making it to the endgame" is extremely relative. Making it to the endgame with what? Vetted units? Having 300+ VPs? 50 VPs? With a full force of infantry, support weapons, and tanks? It's not like getting to a certain point in the game undoes the previous stages of the game. OKW is also easily outscaled by Brits.
What I find about OKW is that their t0 has all the tools that OKW feasibly needs to make it to the endgame. Sure raketens aren't the best and right now sturm schrecks are a joke, but technically they have the backbone in their t0. That's one of the issues at work here. When volks had schrecks OKW didn't even need the sturms or raketens.
So for me, painting the issue as a problem with OKW's lategame is being incomplete at best.
EFA may have momentary advantages in the earlier game to make up for that (which have, incidentally, been somewhat flattened out in the process of WBP). On the other hand, the nature of advantages that UKF/OKW get (overefficient tanks/abilities/veterancy/popcap-overefficiency/etc) carries with them until the game ends.
I don't think EFA does have 'momentary advantages'. Soviets and Ostheer have team weapons to speak of in the early game. They aren't always running a mass of infantry around the map. In my opinion, Soviets have nothing but constant advantages against OKW. At most OKW gets an edge with a KT, but KT's are hardly overefficient. It does one job well: Sitting stationary on a crucial cutoff or VP while being backed up by an entire OKW army. Otherwise it's just bait for Comets/Fireflies, Jacksons, or SU-85s. (I'll admit OKW's KT has the most impact against Soviets, but it's entirely manageable IMO.)
The main question here is:
- Do we want powerspikes for factions (Yes/No)
- Are we OK with the current design where certain factions are given temporary powerspikes (e.g., 1 free squad once), whereas other factions benefit from power-enhancing stuff that carries with them to the end of the game
"Powerspikes"? What do you really mean by "powerspikes" though? I mean, free squads are an issue with USF teching, which is neither OKW or Brits... What are the OKW powerspikes?
Or:
- Should we rethink the nature of powerspikes, so that no faction gets to end the game in an OP state, if the game drags out too long.
There are no global upgrades that amount to a stronger faction at the endgame other than army size. There's no purchased vet, no faster vet, no reduced upkeep, no medics/bergetigers to produce freebie units.
OKW does get the KT unlock. Doctrinal call-ins often outscale/outpace stock units.
I think looking at the pricing and availability of the OKW KT would be warranted. But beyond that I'm leery. I would call it 'The OKW KT' rather than generalizing an array of issues as 'powerspikes'.
The following bonuses have a limited scope for however long they may be considered valuable: - A free truck
???
The following types of bonuses carry with the respective factions until the end of the game:
- Brit commander abilities
- Forward retreat points (they shave off retreat time for every retreat)
- Too much veterancy
- Overefficient popcap for vehicles (which allow you to potentially amass a big army; not an issue in 1v1, even if fixed).
Well, veterancy isn't guaranteed and is still all earned. Losing a vet 4 or 5 unit is a huge loss. But TBH getting vet on OKW units is a challenge, and really doesn't impart exceptional abilities or survivability onto any of its infantry. The KT and Command Panther are probably the two units that really seem to snowball with their vet.
Vet 5 is kind of a silly thing. It could've been done better, or could be done away with entirely.
Forward retreat points are sort of a bonus that continue through the end of the game. Except if its destroyed for OKW, a new 100mp 15f truck has to be called in and 200mp and 35 fuel must be spent. I think the major just costs manpower to replace. He also doesn't have to set up, or invest 300 manpower to get that FRP in the first place. Just saying, OKW really loses the hardest in the FRP equation. At least they don't have to purchase those upgrades a second time.
The only glaring, blatant overefficiency I know of for pop cap is that USF can easily go above 100 because of vehicle crews. But the pop cap inconsistencies across the factions is definitely a worthwhile thing to look into.
As long as we keep throwing stuff that scales badly
Who is "we" when you're saying this? You've made Penal PTRS the hallmark of WBP and IMO that's a perfect example of this.
Don't confuse OKW being broken with the problem that is the Brit faction. Both are problems, both are different problems. You can't exactly argue about one faction and explain things about the other interchangeably.
However, this isn't only mode-specific. This is also map-specific. How do you think the over-scaling factions will behave on the newly-released pool of maps, when suppression/etc can make matches drag out longer?
Do we really want matches to continue to revolve around a very narrow set of maps for a very narrow set of modes?
What mode are you talking about? Maps come before faction design. Factions should never be designed around maps
.
Quite frankly I don't get how OKW is dictating games for people. For me it's almost entirely Brits. OKW and USF alike suffer from faction designs originating with WFA. USF has gone sideways, OKW has been molded into an abomination of its former self.
For me, Brits completely break the fundamental design between Axis and Allied factions.
Axis have strong lategames but struggle to hold enough map territory for 2+ VPs until said lategame. They punish Allies that don't bleed VPs and cut off resources.
Allies have superior numbers, map control, and resources. Field presence is their strength. They punish Axis for overextending.
To give an example of how to address variability of strength at different phases in the game look at CoH2 USF vs OST. USF gets an incredible early-game boost in the form of a free squad (at a very critical phase in the game). To counteract this, OST could get a significant discount in their teching costs, thus allowing them to have a medium tank much earlier than americans (thus, forcing them to make use of their "free" officer advantage to prevent a -too- early tank.
You know through this line of logic you're favoring Axis rushing a medium tank because USF has this advantage of teching where they get a free squad. You've completely ignored the problem of USF getting a free squad at a critical phase in the game.
Additionally, you've pigeonholed Ostheer players into rushing for mediums. Since Ostheer has linear teching with battle phases, discounts affect timing more than strategic options. Whereas USF's free squad comes regardless of how they tech to unlock units. With the idea of discounted Ostheer tech, the LT becomes even weaker because the M20 has less room to lay any mines. Both USF and OST become more predictable and more limited in viable choices. USF becomes forced to use their free squad (which is the origin of this problem) as much of a crutch as possible. Hurrah. The problem becomes the solution?
What could be done instead is that the LT and Captain unlock be made to NOT call in a squad. Imagine that. It could just unlock the option to get an LT or Captain, with their on-map weapon upgrades and special abilities. Addresses the problem directly. The manpower costs can be reduced for the unlock to 100. This allows for a quicker M20 or 50cal, which are rarely seen and also manpower expensive.
This could be an example of strength phasing done right.
There is absolutely no way we are ever going to bother balancing around 4v4, specifically (mostly because there is no way to set up "proper" matches using a balance patch). Making all factions converge to the same end-game strength is the only realistic way to allow balancing efforts to scale.
Declaring it the only realistic way doesn't really make it so... The "same" endgame strength is a very suspect term. I'd suggest the fact that teamgames typically suffer from issues of resource and CP timing. Addressing those would go much further than manufacturing this notion that factions must 'converge' to the 'same' endgame strength.
Otherwise, it boils down to:
- Either all factions scale to comparable strengths
- EFA/USF are forced to use specific commanders to be relevant in 2v2+ (e.g., Calliope for USF, Bombing runs for EFA), and everything continues to revolve around OKW/UKF
- UKF/OKW can be adjusted so that EFA/USF aren't forced to use specific commanders.
I think the original source of this 'early-late' assumption is the per-unit superiority of Wehrmacht armor in vCoH (which, in turn, was doubtlessly inspired by someone's Krupp steel fetish). US were (or should've been) designed to counter it with numbers, coordination and veterancy. But since this balance tended to work past a certain skill level, if at all, the myth was born.
Allied War Machine and Offmap Combat Group specifically.
Wehrmacht's purchased vet eventually made them overwhelmingly efficient, especially with zombie grens.
But that was the name of the game as allies: deny axis fuel.
I think clear definitions of 'lategame' and 'converge' are warranted. If we're talking balance, sure, lategame should be balanced.
But I do not have a problem with Axis factions having a powerful lategame but struggle to hold enough territory for 2+ VPs. I do not have a problem with Allied factions having superior map control, mobility, and resources as a result either.
Why? Those things called VPs.
I think Brits push the envelope as far as this design goes, and I know Brits and WFA introduced a degree of power creep to the game that original factions are feeling. I think on virtue of the Brits the impact on Soviets is diluted, but the effects are obvious.
Soviets have largely been "Guard Motor" faction since launch and Ostheer has lost all utility of their Panther except against Soviets that aren't using Guard Motor.
Best polished means that (with the coming of WBP) all 4 Soviet tiers are viable.
I... guess?
I still wager Ostheer T4's design is perfectly viable, it's the panther being left in the dust. The panzerwerfer is a crucial tool for clearing ATG walls and punishing AT infantry blobs. The function, design, and mechanics of Ostheer T4 is all there.
Soviet T1 'lacks' viability comparatively due to T2 having both Maxim and ZiS. Soviet T1 already had extensive existing viability with Penal & Guard synergy. In a sense, all Soviet tiers are viable before WBP.
No faction should be allowed to be OP in the late-game. This makes it impossible to allow balance to trickle down graceful from 1v1's all the way down. That is, unless we want to ensure that certain factions remain OP, and remain the focal points of attention in those gamemodes.
Teamgames have teamwork. I think that's the important component missing from this equation. Teamwork can shut down players from the start of the match, let alone the end of it. Also, the endgame is dictated by the midgame which is defined by the early game. The endgame has much more flexibility and room to have strong units and mechanics as a result of this.
vCoH was different:
- USF had their lategame strengths (e.g., earned veterancy, doctrines) they could use to stand a chance in the late-game
- There are literally only 2 4v4 maps in the map-pool
- Scheldt was the most-played map (and no amount of balancing could help that)
- inertia
Interesting list. "inertia" ?
You know there was this idea where Americans were denying Wehrmacht Fuel and maintaining a VP tick. You had Wehrmacht trying to cling to fuel and slow the VP drain as much as possible. The goals of the factions were slightly different.
Teamgames, like most of CoH1, were crippled by Opposing Fronts. The same pattern exists with CoH2 and WFA/Brits. In CoH1 teamgames you could just snipe and steal the base flak emplacements of PE, and Brits just ramped up resource income from allies and could never be cutoff if there was 1 American player on the team. The same issues of CPs and resources not scaling properly in CoH1 continue in CoH2. And no faction can really be designed around being double or triple teamed.
The design of CoH2 so far is:
- Different factions should have different strength at different phases in the game (to promote aggressive play)
- All factions should have the tools to survive to make it to the late-game
- Ideally, all factions should converge to the same late-game strength
It's called Victory Points. That's how you have factions that are weaker at the endgame win games. Ever had a KT wreck face at sub 10 VPs but not be able to stop the drain? That's the franchise working as intended. I really think you're forgetting how important VPs are to the concept of faction design.
Given that Soviets have been the most polished faction by now (i.e., not 100% perfect, but still far better than the other factions), you can tell we will be using them as the benchmark for what late-game strength should mean.
Wat? Soviets most polished faction? How? They've had fundamental design issues since launch. Probably even moreso if Penals do end up getting PTRS.
I dunno if it's a worthwhile change.
Feel free to pick it apart or discuss it. I'll be building an OKW redesign mod based off these ideas (and the results of any debate) once WBP hits.
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