Profile of Firesparks

Ostheer by comparison, must invest significant amounts of manpower in either PaKs or Panzergrenadiers to get early and mid-game AT. And, unlike Volksgrenadiers, Panzergrenadiers with Shrecks are pretty terrible against infantry.

people use 222 for at duty now.

First of all Penal are not useless, they have limited use which is different thing, second I never claimed that they should not be buffed. What I am saying is that they should not buffed to level that would allow them to beat both Grens/Volks and PG/SP...

The soviet design is dependence in call in units and that is why soviets have the widest variety of call in and some of the most cost efficient ones.

And USF will also have to side tech and bleed more. Even so Soviet do not have to Both T1 T2, see 222 pop Guards or Partisans, see HMG Spam pop a 120mm...

And it is the wrong guideline if you need a guideline use Soviet units and not USF units...


Given the strength of suggested Penal (being able to beat PG/ST), soviets will simply have map control so 222 will also be delayed...and Soviet do not need light to counter 222...

and that is way USF have weaker late game than Soviet or why Wer against USF use Ostrruppen.

and that is why P.F. are a doctrinal unit and not a T1 unit or why they come with 6 bolt action rifles and not with 6 G43s as you suggest for Penals....
If you have a scout like a sniper and you allow your cover infatry to be pinned then you deserve to have to hit the retreat button...

Things are simple either mod this changes or use miragelfa mod and see what affect similar changes to Penals have...

the soviet meta is dependent on doctrinal call in units, but there's nothing to say that's the design. Soviet are dependent on using shock/guards and is2/t34-85/kv8 because their non-doctrinal alternative is crap. There would be a more convincing case if the soviet were outright missing the t34/76 and penal instead of them being crap.

The soviet already have access to to elite infantry anyway. The shock especially are one of the best anti-infantry infantry in the game. The Penal would be acting as an cheaper alternative to the shock at best. If the wehr can handle shock + t2, then they can handle buffed penal + support weapon. Getting the first penal out cost 430 mp, 160 of twice is toward the production building. In between dealing against a shock or an ersatz flame rifle, the flame rifle is a lot easier to deal with.

the flamethrower is an anti-infantry + anti-garrison upgrade. it significantly boost the unit's firepower against infantry, similar to how stuff like the lmg42 boost the squad's firepower against infantry.

Just as a word of caution; if you made them so effective that they represented a clear advantage over Cons, then one would expect the meta to shift so that T1 is standard and Cons never get built. This is especially likely if they get infantry AT.

We should never be trying to make Penals so effective that they automatically overshadow Cons. At the moment the only real issue that exists with Penals is they are under-used. And that problem is not necessarily going to be solved by taking them a better unit to build in terms of effectiveness for cost.

Frex, if Penals were both buffed and priced to the equivalent of Obers, you might well see more of them. Back-teching to T1 mid-game when you can afford to start fielding elite infantry might easily be seen as worth it.

I'm not offering that as a serious suggestion, only pointing out that bufff/debuff is not really the issue at hand.

the conscript have their own problem with insufficient firepower. Ultimately, a unit's biggest measure of balance is against the axis units, not each other.

Being internally balance means nothing if all of them are useless against the axis. It would just end up on a curious tale of destructive inter service rivalry.

Final tier tank destroyer that has the exact same pen as the AT gun you can build 30seconds into the match? The one that with vet completely and unfairly devastates medium armour but is nothing more than a lottery vs late gane armour (not even a guaranteed pen vs vetted/okw panzer 4s) there is a reason that the t70 provides better AT Support than a Luchs...

the su-85 is one of the fastest firing unit in the game. It's got a faster firing rate than even the pak40

maybe a slight accurate boost. The su-85 does have one of the lowest accuracy among the td. It's less accurate than the jackson, firefly, and jpz4.

In other words you changing faction design in order to replace call in infantries with Penal, while makng the early play style of soviet similar to USF. The question still stands why? is the soviet faction under-performing?


Soviet do not need all their support weapons, even if they did building both T1 and T2 cost less fuel than a single USF and 1 officer gives less access to less cost efficient weapons...


You seem to be missing the point of weapon profiles. One is to have categories of weapons with similar behavior the other is to have range where one infatry has an advantage over the other.

A shock troops for instance is more expensive than gren yet it would badly if it fight a gren if they fight at range 35 while it win over an Ober who is more expensive if they fight close. What you are suggesting make gren volks lose at all ranges...In addition even PG and ST will lose far (around 45% less DPS and around 40% less HP)and will probably lose if they try to close in from 35 under fire or probably lose at all ranges if Penals have flamers...In other words axis will be forced to either spam HMG or go for vehicles.

You also seem to forget that the difference in DPS will become even worse for axis units at vet 3...Penal vet abilities and vet bonuses need to change...

Gren bleed far worse then Penals. By vet 2 Penal will be able to ourah to mid range and obliterare both gren and Volks.


Glad to see that you realize that you can't simply buff a unit massively and expect that everything will be fine...

Try rushing a Soviet sniper supported by Penal with the number you suggested...you might find harder than you think.

And once more why do object in giving Penal a bolt action rifle?

how is it breaking soviet to buff a useless pre-existing unit? how is it breaking soviet to make the soviet less dependent on a selected few doctrinal choice? it would change the current soviet meta, but that's different from breaking soviet design.

going both t1 and t2 also cost more manpower than going either lt or captain for the USF, and even more manpower if soviet actually intent to make use of the new units.

USF vs SOV is also ultimately irrelevant. the game is about Allies vs axis, not USF vs SOV. I'm using the USF rifleman as an guideline of what work, not as competition.

What really matter is How would the axis handle t1 + t2, and my answer is the fact that going t1 +t2 will delay the soviet light vehicle due to the amount of manpower required. The german 222 will especially punish a heavy t1+t2 building

actually the rifleman can match/beat the grenadier at long range, it's just not efficient. What give the wehr supremacy at long range is their support weapon, specifically their mg42. The volks is also a superior base unit compared to the grenadier, but the volks evolve into an anti-tank squad while the grenadier evolve into an anti-infantry squad.

A big enough price difference can also overcome the inherent advantage from weapon profile. A Panzerfusilier will flat out beat conscript regardless of range.

1 penal + 1 sniper vs 1 mg42 + 1 grenadier. the mg42 pin down the penal while the grenadier chase down the sniper. Honestly it wouldnt have been any different from conscript + sniper vs a grenadier + mg42.