Profile of Firesparks

(TD meaning the su-85, jp4, jackson, and the Firefly. I am not including the atg)

weapon accuracy against a target is calculated as the listed accuracy multiple by the target's size.

For example, the 75mm kwk 40 have a accuracy of .025-.05, while the t34/76 have an size of 22. Therefore the kwk 40 have an accuracy of .55 against the t34/76.

(in practice it is actually higher due to stray shot, but .55 is a decent baseline).

Heavy tanks (and more powerful units in general) have a higher size. The tiger for example have a size of 26 compared to the pz4's 22.

This is actually historical and realistic as thicker and heavier armor require more complex suspension, and more powerful gun are generally bigger. This in turn also demanded more powerful engine, which are generally bigger as well. The tiger was 3 meters high compared to the p4's height of 2.68m.

This means that heavy tanks like the tiger are easier to hit, but in theory make up for that fact by having higher HP and armor.

The issue with Tank destroyer right now is the fact their accuracy is too high.

assuming the target have a size of 22 (panzer4).

the jp4/FF 0.04 - 0.06 = 0.88 - 1.32
the Su-85 .04 - .055 = .88 - 1.21
the m36 .035-.05 = .77 - 1.1

this completely nullify the advantages of having a smaller target size. Even with the 50% accuracy penalty, a moving td still achieve an accuracy of 44% against medium tank.

TD doesn't need their current insane accuracy to counter heavy tank, as heavy tank are easier target to hit.

Assuming a target of 26 (tiger and king tiger).
panzer4 .025-.05 = .65 - 1.3
panther .03-.06 = .78 - 1.56

this means the extreme accuracy on the TD are complete overkill. Their accuracy could go down to .025-.05 and still be good against heavy. the Su-76 currently have an accuracy of .025-.05

(atg are different since they are support weapon. I've left out the stug since it's only got 50m range)

That does not mean much.
Panther vs stug, 2 stug are more cost efficient than a Panther.

No matter how you balance the Panther if T4 is simply not worth it, little will change.

In the current balance situation I would rather have a Panther with 230 frontal armor that cost 140 fuel.

you do realize the purpose of this thread is to make the panther more attractive? to say that panther is not good enough so it's not worth buffing is entirely self-defeating.

The Tiger is already invalidated because it's an overpriced piece of shit and has been for a long time now.

if the tiger is truly already invalidated then invaldidating is not helping matter.

Huh I was wrong, maybe a ROF buff then? Feels like the panther generally gets out DPSed since its reload takes forever

Also if people decide to take the generalist approach I'd say buffs to its MGs would be okay.

the okw panther still have pretty slow reload, but the wehr panther reload is "reasonable".

wehr panther = 6.4

pershing = 6.5
E8 = 6.3

t34-85 & comet = 6.15

it's not that worst off.

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Real life Panther has insane armor in front, and quasi no armor on sides/rear.
Real life Panther is an up-armored sniper. It is in an odd place, I agree. But it is
not a brawler. Then you'd be better off with a Churchill which has good all-around armor.

the true "sniper" were the marders tank destroyer that were essentially large gun slap onto old hulls.

The panther was a good long range fighter due to the high accuracy and high penetration of its gun, but that's different from a td like marder whose only mean of survival was to remain hidden.

I'm not gonna say anything about changing the panther but if you think the pershing deserves a buff if a panther gets a potential buff, you need to check your entitlement when playing as USF. The USF was never supposed to get a heavy tank and yet it did. The Jackson right now is straight OP and USF players will be more than fine to not get Persh in the late game. USF never lacked anti-infantry and now it has an OP tank destroyer. I'd say if the Persh needs a change, it should get a nerf if anything.

the purpose of doctrine is to essentially mix up their pre-existing unit rooster. To bring variety to a faction.

Perhing is only useful not as a tank but as a tech skip the tank is useless only good at wipping nothing else 2v2 3v3 4v4 its really bad IMO a lot of are using E8s cuz they can take the same hits(exept from shecks) as a panther vet0 and pershing aka heavy tank and you said USF doesnt lack anti infantry and yees you are HALF right at mid and alte enemy just gets Obers soldat at every freaking game with lmgs and rekt eveyrthing at vet 0 along with volks officer blob my god making riflemen fall back and jackson got cost incrased and trust me elephant and jags can still counter and even if you dont take that commander you got fast rate of fire p4 along with panther as OKW and for OST too but with Stugs which their ROF is insanly fast cuz it has no turret which is good

I do think the pershing would better serve the USF if it lose its AOE in exchange for better armor and hp. The godlike AOE is really overkill and unnecessary in the same faction carrying the sherman.


the main draw of the pershing tank in game and in real life was having something that could go toe to toe against german tank. The sherman tank didn't had any problem killing infantry.

Part of the Problems with Ostheer is that T4 it is not worth building since it gives access only to specialized expensive vehicles that can be countered be cheaper units. Even if one manages to balance the Panther if going T4 is not worth it, people will still relay on tiger.

When allied Tds had trouble dealing with Panther at least it worked as break thru vehicle, currently it can not.

T4 needs to provide a premium main battle tank, or a reshuffle of unit is needed. Like moving Osthwind to T4 and Brumbar or PW in T3.

As long as Tiger is doctrinal it does not come into balance since it can be balanced separately.

Or allied simply should not use KT as the benchmark of their performance, so that Ostheer T4 unit become cost efficient again.

simply ignoring the Giant man eating tiger is not going to work as long as it's there.


panzer4 - generalist tank
panther - tank hunter
brummbar - flak casemate howitzer tank
ostwind - infantry tank
stug - casemate tank destroyer (should be 60m range really)
panzerwerfer - rocket artillery

This means that each unit in the Wehr tank arsenal doesn't step on each other's toe.

Secondly, the panther doesn't need to have HE. The faction itself already have plenty of option in between the brummbar, ostwind, and the panzer.

Instead of relying on one single unit to do everything, restricting the panther to being the gold standard of tank hunter means the other units still have role to fill-full.

Infact, anti-infantry firepower is really the last thing the wehr is in need of. Their arsenal of support weapons are the best in the game.

The wehr 's Achilles' heel is durability and maneuverability. The panther sitting at the end of the tech tree having durability and maneuverability basically serve as the linchpin of the wehr army, doing what the 4 men grenadier and support weapon can not.

Agreed. Since they nerfed the StuG the Wehr needs a good TD and for some reason the Soviets have 2, the SU-76 and SU-85, altho the 76 is a dual purpose unit, I don't see the problem in having the Panther be dual purpose as well then.

Being a TD and Heavy when needed, the switchable rounds would enforce that however the "omg tis too similar to another faction!!1!!!" crowd will speak up.

(it's a repeat of what I said to shadow and vipper)

the change switch would invalidate the doctrine with the tiger, as well as the panzer4 and the brummbar. The tiger being a great generalist make it an "upgrade" over the Panther which would just be a great anti-tank brawler.

The panther's role would be to ensure the wehr and okw maintain tank superiority regardless the doctrine choice of either side. (with the exception of the is-2) The tiger would be a mainly anti-infantry boost (if you really want a great anti-everything unit) and the panzer4 retain relevancy by being the only generalist tank in the tech tree.

and the allies td have balance issue of their own. the last few patch really mess up their balance.

during the pre-release beta of the vanilla coh2, panther had a range of 60m. this mean that the panther matched range with the su-85.

the range was eventually nerfed to its current value of 50m, but this leave the panther as a weird mix of tank destroyer and heavy tank.

as one of the most durable tech tree unit for the wehr and okw, the panther is typically used as the spearhead unit in an assault. This tactic runs counter to its advantage of having superior range over most tank in the game.

As such, the Panther tank should get a hp boost to 960 (from 800) in exchange for a range nerf to 45m. This would allow the panther to better perform as the brawler.


TL;DR: hp buff to 960, range nerf to 45m