Profile of Firesparks

Discouraging map movement is like the job of Ostheer

you're confusing goals and means. Discouraging map movement is the goal of the ostheer, because it forces their enemies into the superior wehr support weapon.

giving the wehr one of the fastest tank in the game break the dynamic. (for medium tank at least)

But by design they will never be probable woth axis snares. Its bullshit soons volks got snares falls fusilers should be gone. Also take into account originally allies were designed around the mediums speed and manueverability also historicly accurate. I emplore you to play brits sometime i doubt you would be able to handle with no snares and purely out foxing your opponet. Try fighting a luchs with a the kangaroo wagon when you can be snared at anytime but your oppenent knows you cant snare.

I think you're too obsessed with getting pass the infantry instead of killing them.

the grenadiers and volks are themselves valid targets, killing them will drain manpower just as well.

Mediums in general possess anti-infantry power. If infantry are in the way, kill them, and retreat if enemy reinforcement shows up.

On a larger map the medium tank is more likely to finish repair before the Infantry have a chance to reinforce and walk back up. The forward retreat points are themselves juicy target for artillery. With every infantry that's gone it's more holes for the medium tank to slip through. If the enemy fall back to tighten their front, you push forward back and can get better map control.

Medium tanks are suppose to be flexible. If a heavier unit have an exposed flank you flank. If infantry is in the way you kill them. If you really want to take on a heavy tank from the front, you get tank destroyer to support you. Their long range bypass the damage of snare.

Yes, this takes multiple attempts instead of one big climatic battle, but being able to last through those attempts is what will make medium useful.

That would still unfortunately leave the question unanswered. It would push the problem more to the sidelines definitely but still be a lazy solution.

I'm pretty confident that as long as Panther has to cling to this niche of a "Tank Hunter" there will probably never be a satisfying solution. There is no fleshed out intended design for this unit category from gameplay perspective. (Can I even say it is a category of its own when its a single unit)

This unclear definition just leads to weird arguments used for the Panther like: every tank needs to stop to fire to maintain accuracy so Panther as well, or Panther is not a TD ergo it doesn't need 60 range. There are also such a wide variety of rework ideas because it's current gameplay design seems so peculiar. For example suggestions for the more lumbering meat shield like the KV1, a TD like a firefly, a 200 damage medium/premium killer come to mind. The issue is that it belongs to none of these categories, not a medium tank, not a TD, not a normal premium, not a heavy...just this weird Tank Hunter category with no other units to compare it to.

the question of what should be tha panther's role is not tough. Panther should be the linchpin holding the wehr together in the late game.

The wehr's biggest weakness is their lack of durability and mobility. Panther having high armor, high hp, and good mobility (6.4 2.3 is still good) essentially plug up the wehr's institutional weakness.

The panther give the wehr something that can carry an offense and take damage. In fact this is really what most people used the panther now. It's already used as a heavy by the axis.

The high moving accuracy is a USF trait. Historically their tanks was the only one equipped with a stabilizer, although lend lease tank also kept it.

Wehr, okw, soviet, and the UKF all have to deal with a .50 accuracy modifier. the Firefly conversion process removed the stabilizer, although it still have a .55 accuracy modifier that's marginally better.

I still don't understand the point of the thread. Mediums shouldn't be strolling the map faster than anything else unsupported and carefree inflicting bleed as they wish. Panthers won't dive you if you're supporting your armor with AT and snares.

except that was their role in real life. Medium tanks were not battering rams. Their speed were to facilitate penetration into the enemy's rear line. How is it bad to encourage map movement and avoid static slug match?

The what? How many allied heavy do you see those days? Increasing range and lowering pen is just going to sign off the end of USF faction.
Second point is if one or two stugs aren't enough to pen heavies, build another one. 3 Stugs will always be better than going t4 and building a Panther.

currently the stug have the same accuracy value as the other td (.04-.06), but in a shorter range.

The significantly cheaper price on the stug is partly due to the 50m range on the gun. a buff to 60m would require significant change to the gun, almost to the point of redesigning the unit.

It is also because of this I didn't include the stug with the other td. The general argument doesn't work as well.

You cant really even dive with mediums anymore really anyways they will just get snared as almost every axis infantry has them even axis call in infantry or hit a mine which often results in you losing your mediums and panther escaping with a sliver of health. So more than 1 medium (to use mostly for AI) really not effective for allies anymore hence why I and everyone uses TDs to just try and block axis armor from a safe distance. I really use to like running mediums packs especially ez8s but they just do not seem effective at all for allies anymore in 1v1 maybe more viable but not 2v2 or up.

Yep exactly, I really wish we could go back to medium meta, it made for much more fun micro intense battles and cat and mouse games, but i agree probably impossible at this point.

I will tell you a huge reason why I don't use mediums anymore is for one every fuckin axis infantry unit has snares now even the call in infantry its rediculous, that gaurantees a fail almost every time on a big flank or dive. grens volks fusilers ostruppen falls think even jager or stormtroopers might also, then think about how many allied infantry have snares. Thats a huge one, no mobility on mediums makes them of no use and every time there gonna get snare spammed.

I have the same feeling that what is primarily killing the medium tank meta is the profusion of snare in almost any infantry in game, except for the UKF.
And looking at how UKF works today, I think we could get ride of 80% of all snares in game.

-1 Snares could be removed from mainline infantry and given to pioneers/engineers/Rear Echelon.
-2 Snares threshold could be put at 50% of the tank life.
-3 Snares could be replaced with another disability for the tank, turret rotation or reload speed or whatever that doesn't reduce the tank speed.
-4 Snares could be temporal, like 3/5 seconds.

And if snares are so important for the early game vs light vehicle, snares could act the same way as today for those units.

since vanilla release the field has been filled with infantry tank snare. The game started with faust, at nade, and guard button, and now it's still the same faust, and at nade. The addition of the other faction didn't change matter. If it's not volks faust it's going to be gren faust. If it's not conscript at nade it's going to be rifle at nade.

and the snare have gotten gradual nerf. At release they were 100% damage engine, but now they need to down down the tank hp to 75% first.

in short, at snare is not the issue here.

In coh2 there have been three medium tanks that have seen regular use. The panzer4, the t34/85, and the cromwell (before the nerf anyway).


I believe the key factor in the viability of the t34/85 and cromwell are their survivability.

The effect of the t34/85's 800 hp is self explanatory.

The cromwell (and comet), meanwhile was the first allied medium to be actually faster than the panther. This contribute heavily to the cromwell's survivability as they could consistently escape panther. Warspeed is as much of a escape tool as it is a flanking tool.

secondly was the cromwell's small size of 18. This provide the cromwell a second form of defense against the TD. This is also why I believe tank destroyer should be less accurate. The centaur still have the 18 size and the effect on accuracy is noticeable.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/69042/tank-destroyers-should-be-less-accurate

If it costs almost double mediums, you should have roughly 2 mediums per panther. Sounds more like a l2p issue than a balance issue.

There's more to it than a general panther vs medium slug match.

It's a matter of unit preservation. It's easier to retreat out of a bad situation if the enemy isn't faster than you. (or have laser accurate guns)

the simple vehicle smoke is one of the best ability in the game for this reason.

medium tank should be able to outrun what it can't outfight.

and lastly 6.4 2.3 isn't slow. The current sherman tank is only 6.4 2.2 and the e8 even slower at 6.1 2.1.

What the fuck. Is ostheer just supposed to try and catch the bouncing shells like a football player? You're suggesting it become a 60 range TD machine gun. It'll still decimate mediums, but do nothing vs heavies.

for reference, the USF 57mm penetration is 130/140/150. the APCR provide 50% penetration bonus, so 195/210/225.

and the idea is to provide more incentive for the axis to upgrade to the panther. To do that the stug needs to stop being the ultimate answer to allies armor. The stug is still decent against medium with 140/160/180, enough for the axis to buy t4 for the panther.

and as armadillo explain below, the 60m range provide safety for the stug, even if the shots are bouncing.

lastly the pak40 is still there. They can provide firepower the stug can't provide.

Idk... Stug spam is the go to cancer for ost... Making them 60 range without the durability drawbacks the su76 has (which is annoying enough as it) would be beyond game breaking. Especially at t3. It would incentivise ignoring t4 even harder and spamming stugs even more

for reference, the pen on the su-76 is 180/190/200. a penetration nerf on the stug in exchange for a range buff is meant to make it less powerful but less risky.

and as shadow explain above, 140/160/180 means the stug will bounce regularly off the allies heavy.