Profile of Firesparks

The panzer 4 should have weaker armor and more powerful gun.

historically the panzer 4 had weaker armor than the sherman and t34/76, unlike it is portrayed in game.

the panzer4 had 50mm of armor on the turret + 80 mm of armor on the hull. This was thinner than the 90mm of armor on both the hull and turret on late war sherman and t34.

The cromwell, meanwhile, was roughly equivalent in terms of armor to the panzer 4, with 76mm on the turret and 62mm on the hull.

This present a interesting situation, as it means the three factions with advanced medium tank (panther and comet) also fielded regular medium tank with thinner armor than the two faction with only one medium tank (USF, SOV).

focusing more on the panzer4, the main reason it had thinner armor was in large part due to its gun. The 75mm kwk40 was an very good gun on par with the US 76mm and Soviet 85mm, but mounting it pushed the pz4 chassis to its limit.

This was an acceptable trade off for the german, and the more powerful cannon allow the panzer4 to remain competitive with the 75mm sherman and t34/76.

Currently in game, the panzer 4 's combination of superior armor and gun allow allowed it to tackle the USF's sherman comfortably, when in reality the late war m4a3 75w was a formidable match for the pz4. (the t34 had other issue, the cromwell was similarly thin skin with a weaker gun)

With the presence of the panther tank in both the wehr and okw tech tree, the panzer4 need not to be dominate against the t34/76 and the sherman.

The panzer 4 should be a thinly armored vehicle whose greatest strength is the flexibility of its firepower. Its firepower would allow it to fight comfortably on the defense, but its thin armor make it vulnerable on the offense. In late game the panzer's firepower make it an effective flank protector for the german big cat.

Here's my proposed penetration and armor value for the wehr panzer4:

penetration: 140/160/180 (current 110/115/125)
armor: 140

AOE, reload, and the mg would remain the same.

Sigh... Seeing as to how the British Infantry were known to be accurate shooters in WW2, it really is a shame to see them this way. Paying 90 Munitions for 2 Brens that perform the same as 2 DP28s for 75 Munitions.

I'm not against a damage nerf but the Bren has officially lost it's character as a highly accurate LMG... While I do appreciate the work you guys do, Mr.Smith, this change is disappointing. Is there really no way to make them do short, accurate bursts that do the same DPS you are trying to achieve?

It may seem trivial to quibble about such things but as someone who likes reading and learning about WW2, authenticity is important too.

This. Limiting the bren to one should have been the way to go. Using dual bren for tommies just feel wrong.

the standard bren allocation for a british infantry divison was 1 bren per 10 men, compared to the german's 1 mg42 for a 9 men. Early war US rifle was 1 bar per 12 men, and eventually to 2 bar per 12 men.

hence it should be 1 bren for tommy, 1 lmg42 for gren, and 2 bar for rifleman.



The balancing the vicker K is a difficult job, but that weapon is ultimately second to the bren gun.

Originally, Jacksons were fragile sniper and Wolverines spammable brawlers.
I believe personally that USF TDs had better Dynamics in CoH1, where they all were brawlers instead of long range snipers and Dynamics between M10 and Hellcat were much better then M10 and M36.

Existence of M36 and tech requierment of M10 ensure that M10 will never be taken into account.

it didn't really work in coh1. The American were routinely getting their ass kick in late.

although the situation hasn't improved much since then.

Enough with this sissy boy "skirmisher tank" talk, the Jackson is an all American brawler baby with 90mm of kraut pushing power.

The Jackson is finally in a good position yet Relic are nerfing it. If you want to mess around with this sissy "skirmisher" concept we have the m10 over here that you can turn into a copy of the Puma since you seem so obsessed with. Sure give it smoke and call it a day.

If anything the Jackson needs a slight MP or fuel increase, possibly to slightly cheaper than a panther. It's role now is vital in giving the USF a vehicle that doesn't get utterly destroyed by medium armour spam or big cat heavies (JT or Ele).

do you seriously think the jackson can out brawl a king tiger? do you want to have it both ways where jackson have both range and high hp?

this is simple greed. This isn't going to work.

Do you know WHY the cheapest infantry get that weapon? Its because they are and only ever will be 4 men. They have that weapon so that despite their small squad size they can continue to fight as without it dps falls by 25% per model (of whom are easier to hit AND more expensive to replace than tommies btw) tommies dont have that problem becauae they can diffuse the 4 man squad problem.

I think weapon racks and 5 man squads should be mutually exclusive. If thats the case keep brens big and strong, but as long as they get throw on another model (with health, a gun and presenting another target to disperse incoming damage) theres no reason for the bren to be MUCH more than a fancy model.you cant have an inferiour squad inferiour 100% of the time in literally every single way and call it balance. Let okw start with obers and lets see how that balance goes. Same thing, just a smaller scale with tommies.

well, it's a bit of a chicken and egg question.

does the grenadier get lmg42 because they only 4 men, or are they 4 men because they get the lmg42?

the mg42 is very much part of the german identity, and people expect the lmg42 to be great. Being able to field 240 mp squad equipped with one of the best LMG in the game is pretty much the wehr's main strength.

as it is currently, the real issue for the bren is the dual equip capability. Even with the cover bonus it's still worst than the LMG42.

The combo of Vickers_k, Bren gun and tommy rifles is optimised for a-moving max-range (except for cover penalties, luckily).

1919 is max range too. However garands and bars aren't so amazing at a-move range.

the change in the current patch log would "fix" bren + vicker, but it still doesn't really address the underlining issue. There's still the possbility of m1919a6 + vickers for the USF in team game.

Yes, it's a very specific combo, but it's not a difficult combo to do.

Ultimately, I think vicker k needs to be made to take up two slot and balanced accordingly. or nerfed down to dp-28 level. The only real benefit of the vicker K is giving it to allies or shenanigans.

The fact that it's actually a different weapon mean there's more technical leeway. You can change the special weapon vicker K without worrying about accidently changing the bren. (like what happened with the coaxial and hull on the t34).

well, right now the tommy bren is too weak to be limited to one and too strong for dual pick up. It's either going to be buffing the bren and limiting it or nerfing the bren decreasing its cost.

actually, after looking at the tommies and bren more closely, I will need to correct myself. the main reason why single bren is weak is because the tommies have the weakest veterancy among line infantry. 20% accuracy and 22% accuracy protection is pretty crappy.

The tommies pretty much depend on their fifth man and dual bren to keep pace with other line infantry.


the pending tommies veterancy change is also technically a nerf as well:

.88*.89 = .7832

It's not possible to limit picked-up weapons to 1 (Vickers-K), without making them trash (e.g,. 1 gun takes 2 slots).

We have to find a solution for double-wielding Vickers-K anyway to keep them good but not OP. If a solution works for Vickers-K, then an identical solution will also work for Bren guns.

Tweaking accuracy values is the just the best way to tweak DPS curves without shooting yourself in the foot.

the nerf to the vicker is a necessity, but not for the bren.

the same solution used for the m1919a6 will work for the bren gun,

Brens are already weaker then M1919 and tommies are much stronger then rifles at range.
Rifles were limited, because it completely changed dynamics and intended use of the squad.
M1919 gave rifles much more then Bren gives to tommies so it was limited.
If Bren was to be limited, it would need a major buff instead as 1 bren for 60 mun with current stats is comparatively low improvement over any other weapon upgrade for any other squad.

well, right now the tommy bren is too weak to be limited to one and too strong for dual pick up. It's either going to be buffing the bren and limiting it or nerfing the bren decreasing its cost.

buffing the bren and limiting it to one means the tommies still have the option of getting the PIAT. (or retaining the rifle)

It also differentiate it from a dual vicker pick up.

basically what lago said:

I wasn't suggesting you actually make the Vickers K and Bren Gun that similar. Personally I'd like them to be as different as possible. The M1919/BAR tradeoff works because the M1919 is better but forces you to stay still which is awkward for USF. The Vickers K and the Bren tread on each other's toes like nobody's business.