It is just as retarded as Strum pioneer or PG taking a/multiple panzershreck out from their pocket suddenly on the field. When is this QOL feature registered as axis's patent and Soviet is not allowed to enjoy it?
Conclusion:Axis is fucking braindead since release.
Sturms are not spammable due to their expense and their faction's light tank cannot fight evenly with any other factions light tank.
Panzergrenadiers have to be teched to and their faction has no light tank.
Do you remember all the allied complaints about Shreks on Volks? So OKW lost their handheld AT on mainline infantry. Now all allied factions can have double handheld AT on their mainline infantry.
Thats what's braindead. |
YES! The possibility is what hurts. I'd love to be able to multi-flank battle with single units. I'd also love to be able to get a shrek, even just 1 would be nice. Member shreks on volks?
I 'member
But apparently, handheld AT on mainline units is WRONG, so it's only available to USF, UKF and SOVs.
This is needed because German light vehicles, tanks and medium tanks are so powerful. |
you do realize they cost almost 100 muni?
Munitions aren't a huge issue for soviets.
In any case, it's 100 muni for an ability with an excellent chance to insta wipe a full vet squad.
Minesweepers are the obvious counter but it means you can't get a shrek as OKW or you have to go double Sturms. It also means you can't send single squads capping or blob up to counter the enemy guards/cons blob unless you have a sweeper unit.
The impact of demos is more than just the occasional wipe. Just the possibility that there is a demo shuts down harrassing with single units.
And have you ever heard any caster shout "Wow, yeah, what an excellent use of demo, much skill, wow!"
Demos are bad. |
All these changes would improve gameplay. I say do it. |
Anyone remembers the vCoH fallschirmjaegers?
- Kar98k at start which can be upgraded to FG42
- a grenade which was meant to clear out buildings only
It was the dream
Yeah and they were more lethal then coh2 Falls. They were fckn scary, I loved em) Not so prone to being one-shot either. |
This is where it becomes iffy. The Panzer IV is not meant to be a power spike, by its very design. It is there as a necessary part of a diversified army, to fill the gap the StuG can't fill.
What you describe, is what I have on multiple occasions compared to the way initiative works in the father of modern strategy games, Kriegsspiel. The idea is that a force without (or with inferior) offensive capabilities, either in terms of strategy or in terms of ability, has no (or less) initiative and is thus forced to react to its opponents's actions. From this follows, that the terms of an engagement can be seized by one side, taking the other side's ability to apply a strategy of their own. It's like a good shuttlecock player making the other player run constantly after the bird, without moving much himself.
How does that apply to COH2? Well, initiative is present in the way assaults work. From the strategical position, any army is generally able to mount an assault (as that depends on the player). But the capability to do so varies significantly across the different armies. And that's what makes the current Ostheer gameplay so boring: There is no offensive capability here, forcing the Ostheer player to either massively outwork his opponent, or have the terms of the game dictated to him. That doesn't mean Ostheer is weak and needs buffs per se (outside of the current balance issues), it means that playing the faction feels unrewarding, because you have to be much more capable to navigate the battle into a certain direction - something for example a USF player can achieve with significantly less input. It makes a faction feel harder to play, despite it having powerful tools at its disposal (and especially the USF faction design is actually meant to mitigate that effect, by having some units require more micro to work well).
The solution here is not to buff the Panzer IV, I heavily recommend against that, but to adjust its opponents. That can start with a general rework of for example movement penalties to accuracy, which would actually require the StuG for example to be nerfed in that regard, to differentiate it even more from the Panzer IV.
P.S.: Fixed some translation issues.
Nice ideas! Your solution could work too. I'm not arguing that buffing the Piv is the only way but that it is, at least, a way to level the playing field.
Do you see though that allied tanks all have a shock factor and provide a power spike and that the axis lacks this almost entirely. Any shock unit they have is either already countered by the time it arrives or immediately after. |
In terms of Soviet tank doctrine, the KV-1 has nothing to do with either the T-34 or the IS-series (that claim is similar abstruse as claiming that the Sturmgewehr was conceptionally some sort of predecessor to the AK-series). Sure, the armament was similar to the T-34 for most of the time of its existence, but being heavily armoured meant a completely different usage profile. Meanwhile, the IS-series was used as a more modern form of the old assault gun. With a tank of that capability, the necessity to mount heavy guns to awkward or casemated chassis was gone - the IS-series could mount guns that served the same purpose, while also being able to withstand more firepower, while also being more mobile. The trade-off to medium tanks were cost, technical complexity, and mobility, which is why the concept was made superfluous by the idea of the Main Battle Tank.
Back to topic: This idea is impossible to properly balance. The Panzer IV series in this game is already constantly on the backfoot, even against what the Allies can currently field. Sure, the OKW Panzer IV is notably better off than its Ostheer equivalent, but that doesn't help it much in the face of massive cost differences compared to performance differences.
The T-34/85 as the Soviet standard tank has been discussed regularly in multiple forums over the past couple years, and in the end the result was mostly the same: It would be impossible to balance against the then useless T-34/76 - regardless of whether the T-34/76 would then end up in those very same doctrines that now contain the T-34/85. The availability of that choice would be meaningless, because the game's demands would always favour the T-34/85, thus actually limiting strategical diversity.
Then there's also the problem (especially with the US) of how to balance these upgrades into the asymmetrical gameplay: Riflemen are massively superior to all other standard infantry, and that has a very specific reason. Suddenly overturning that reason would require a significant reconsideration of how USF early game works, and suddenly we have another Osther/OKW faction - I don't think anyone would like that.
The Panzer IV series in this game is already constantly on the backfoot, even against what the Allies can currently field. Sure, the OKW Panzer IV is notably better off than its Ostheer equivalent, but that doesn't help it much in the face of massive cost differences compared to performance differences.
This. Axis don't get a power spike when they field their first medium tanks, which really they should do after having to be on the backfoot vs allied light tanks (every allied faction has a light tank that hurts infantry and other vehicles. Axis do not)
Instead, when it arrives, it instantly has to deal with the Cromwell and Sherman. The Soviets seem more balanced in this but the SU76 can stop the PIV from pushing into territory to take back ground lost because of the T70.
In 2v2 it always feels like wave after wave of allied power spikes with no power spike from the Germans. When the Axis do get their great tanks, the field is already full of mediums that can deal with them because of their numbers. (and don't forget the resource gap that's a result of Allied early-game dominance) |
T1 dont give greate map control, for reason that units from this tier have high price, how good control you can have with sniper ? If sniper so good, why we dont see it in 1v1 tourney allied meta stats ? You forget that soviet tiers re not line, thay based on MP coz ligh vehicles compared to axis are in more hight tier.
For the first 2 minutes, soviets will have bad map control, yes. But then the m3a1 halftrack shuts down axis capping and afterwards the penals can push axis off the map and then take garrisons to hold.
We didn't see it in the tourney because Maxim spam is a bit more effective but takes less brainpower to execute. If maxims weren't still so powerful, you'd be seeing even more T1 strats in tourneys.
Gameplay would be improved greatly if the m3a1 and penal-flamers were removed and the maxim were changed.
Do you really think it's right that all the allied armies has an early-game vehicle that can wipe squads and carry units behind MGs but that the axis don't? They don't have anything even close!
But I really think early-game light vehicles should all be similar to the Kubel in terms of damage and durability. I'd love to have the early-game infantry battles and map-hassling that we saw in CoH1. Not this head-to-head static slugfest. |
To all the people saying that CoH2 is not vCoH and to stop living in the past, it might not be the same game but the fundamentals are the same, budwise and the other older players are not here to start a vCoH vs CoH2 war. We are here to help CoH2 be a better game and if vCoH got many things right and if we can use what we learned from playing and watching vCoH change to make CoH2 more fun to play then we will do that. It's not about living in the past, it's about using what we learned from the past. Every tier doesn't in fact need AT, otherwise you get an end result of shallow teching, if you dont need to worry where you are getting your AT from because every tier has it then what's the point. Every tier should have a pro and con, every tier should be worth getting in certain situation, you don't want a tier to be always worth getting regardless of the situation because it's so strong in itself. Now obviously this isn't a golden rule because there are factions that function differently. What many are overlooking here is that the factions are fundamentally flawed themselves, so balancing is difficult. I appreciate what the modders are doing here to try and help the game but I still think that they are doing so by applying bandages instead of fixing the real problems and in that process they are destroying a bit of what CoH was about, I know some of them come from other RTS and that may influence their way of balancing.
Fact is that you have a tier that is good all around, which is the soviet T1, it has a good frontline infantry, the sniper and the M3A1, obviously this tier has no AT but has a lot of good AI and that is the strength of it, the problem is that due to the axis faction design and even more about the fact that the M3A1 can have infantry inside it goes around one of the mechanics of the CoH franchise which is about flanking MG's, you can just pop a full 6 men squad behind the MG (I cant even imagine how broken it would be in vCoH if I could pop a rifle behind the MG with the jeep), it goes even further than that since penals could have flamethrowers, I think the M3A1 here is a problem and the ostheer T1 especially the grenadier is another.
So good to see a top player saying this. The m3a1 really wrecks the early game. Ostheer can't depend on its MG (even in a garrison when flamers come) and Volks don't have a faust til t1. It forces muni drain and defensive clumping from Ostheer and an early AT unit and clumping from OKW when what they need is anti-inf to combat the strong infantry of the soviet T1.
The fact that it also stops you from harassing deep in enemy territory is also a serious problem. While soviets can send their cheap units anywhere on the map, the axis risk an early game squad wipe if they do and so must keep all their units together and lose map control.
Also - VCoH had so many nice features and mechanics that would benefit CoH2 and wouldn't be that difficult to incorporate into the game. It's not about nostalgia, it's about wishing those great features were included in this game.
"Every tier should have a pro and con, every tier should be worth getting in certain situation"
That was great in VCoH. You could try an unusual build but your opponent could react to it, so a player wasn't able to have a beat-all cookie-cutter strat. This created dozens of different possibilities and fun options. Those options do not exist in CoH2 because you know if you don't automatically build the counters to one of the two soviet strategies (Maximspam + Sniper to Guards) you're going to be fighting a horrendous uphill struggle. |
Why complicate so much if you can make Penals from 1.1 and add M-42 /Done
This PTRS, PPsh+flamer, then another 3rd PTRS after T4
It's like you have no idea what to do with Penals.
Take away flamethrower, make their stats better than Cons (so they are stronger than Cons but have no utility), no utility (so Cons have better utility) and put M-42.
But of course you haven't tried anything else becasue "PTRS" :/
___
If any infantry needs upgrades, it's Cons, not Penals. Cons should be mainline infantry, while Penals should be quasi-elite, better than Cons but without utility, apart from satchel.
Synergy from AI Penals, M3 and Sniper covered with M-42 would be enough to go for T1.
ATM I see no reason why I should go for T1 with all those weird changes.
I pretty much agree. |