I didnt even bothered to answer your question, to let you realize how stupid it was.
I stated my point of view in the thread prior to this, but in case you forgot:
Let me put it clear:
Is it fair to compare Pak howies to former howitzers? NO
Is it fair to compare pak howies to mortars? NO
Because it gets the best of both worlds. Autoatack (howitz dont) and more range (mortars fall short) therefore. Its only disadvantage, "its fragile", but it can always be recrewed, because other team weapons, THEY HAVE TO BE IN ACTUAL COMBAT RANGE, involving risk of being stealed/destroyed.
And the only excuse i get from all this is: They are expensive! (like literally dirt cheap if you compare to the former howitzers or the damage they are able to do)
You did consider tech cost for pak howies, how funny, then we should do the same for Wstukas, the only natural counter or Pwerfer.
To cherrypick arguments is a sign of how loose their bolts are.
Less damage than a howitzer and less mobile than a mortar. What category is most proper for the pack howitzer, if I had to choose between those two items, I can't say, but generally, since howitzer happens to actually be in the name of the unit, I err in that direction. At the end of the day, they are all indirect fire units, and comparisons can be made nevertheless in either direction.
And yes, it is expensive. Is it worth it's price? Yes. Because of it's barrages? No. Range? The autoattack range is even the same as the Ostheer mortar, and I would be willing to suggest that two grw34s would probably do more damage overall than a single pack howitzer (480mp vs 340mp). But you pay for the consistent output it delivers; having an autoattack that is effective at dislodging a static enemy. This is why any proposal to remove or nerf autofire MUST either allow the M1 to still perform this role adequately still, or (more likely, given the limitation of barrage and the probability that autofire would be overnerfed) allow it to deal more damage in bursts via buffed barrages, making it more like the other howitzers in the game.
And yes, it is very fragile. Certainly as much as, if not moreso, than any 240mp mortar in the game. Saying walking stukas of all things are the only counter to the pack Howie is like saying the M36 is the only counter to Axis armor (and might as well imply that mortars themselves are all uncounterable). As said already, the autoattack range is already matched by all of your own Ostheer IDF options; the pack howitzer's range advantage is only apparent in its barrages. The crew all wear 1.25 target size bullet magnet vests, and clump directly around the howitzer at all times, hence the often repeated and very much accurate claim that a single P4 hit could decrew it. To make matters even easier, I have repeatedly suggested some sort of teardown/setup nerf to make this unit even more vulnerable to either call-in artillery/strikes or flanks/pushes than it already is.
Furthermore, we've already discussed methods of reworking this unit in a way that removes or nerfs autofire while keeping it useful; you're the one who has continuously fallen apart over the mere suggestion that the Pack Howitzer be anything but a long range mortar (and, apparently, the only one you want USF to have, if you still believe anything you said in your first post in this thread), when it has been abundantly clear over and over that nobody is going to pay 340 manpower and 8 popcap for a mortar that cannot lay free smoke and which is utterly fucked if ever contacted by the enemy since it cannot retreat. Nor will anyone pay the same for a barrage-only howitzer that is generally incapable of killing a single model.
You refuse to answer my questions because you have absolutely no real suggestions beyond an impulsive nerf to essentially remove a unit from the game. The fact your main complaint about the unit is now it's range, when everyone up to this point, and even yourself, have been talking about the autoattack capability, proves as much.
There's no argument to cherrypick. You have offered absolutely nothing constructive this entire thread. |
No, but that wasn't my point. How he word it, seem like units have a max damage of 68 when all mortars can still kill a full health model, it's just that it is heavily unlikely to happen. No normal indirect fire unit can kill any full health squads due to this changes and improved formations.
My only concern without removing AA is, why the unit have the current values compared to other similar units?
Let's say the AoE is fine, why it needs either it's current RoF or scatter values?
If coh2db stats are up to date:
-AA RoF:
Howie: 9.94s
120mm: 14.15
OH 81mm: 10.81s
ISG: 8.935
-Scatter (Angle/Distance Ratio/Distance offset)
Howie: 6/0.1/8
120mm: 10/0.1/10
81mm: 10/0.08/8
ISG: 6/0.1/5
-AoE (Radius, Distance near, Mid, Far)
Howie: 5, 1.5 (68dmg), 3 (40), 4.5 (20)
120mm: 6, 1.5, 3, 4.5
81mm: 4, 1, 2, 3
ISG: 4, 0.75 (68dmg), 1.5 (32), 2.25 (16)
Probably because it's a 340 (formerly 380) manpower unit.
Howie: 340mp (250mp 55 fuel tech)
120mm: 310mp (don't even remember whats needed for this besides commander)
81mm (grw34): 240mp (80mp 10 fuel)
ISG: 270mp (300 MP 35 fuel)
I actually had no idea the stats for the ISG and Pack Howitzer were so similar, though I did know the former had better accuracy and a faster projectile. Higher ROF is surprising. If anything I find this sort of vindicative, but I already offered something like a minor scatter increase or rate of fire decrease back in page 2.
I would still very much rather price (particularly since this was part of the "nerf" moving from a 6-man to 5-man weapon team earlier) or some other modification as I am not sure how much of an impact on practical effectiveness this would have on the unit, being more RNG, but it beats redesigning this unit or nerfing it completely to hell. Could even involve raising howitzer crew cost and build time so that reinforcement is not much more efficient with the original crew.
And yes, apologies for the misunderstanding on the AOE scaling with regards to the 68 figure. In any case I've never witnessed light IDF kill a full health model and doubt I will often. |
Less often used WP barrage? I use that all the time. It's great to throw at aggressive bghqs to stall infantry, and it's awesome at doing exactly what you just said the regular barrage isn't great for: displacing weapon teams.
Good damage, blocks vision, AND slows them down if they try to retreat/re-position away from the barrage. Also temporarily disables main gun of tanks. So many reasons to use it
Getting a pak Howy to vet up is not difficult by any means. Only hard to keep alive if any rocket/heavy arty starts targeting it
I am sorry if my posts are not clear on the matter, but please understand I am largely arguing on the assumption that the AA nerf goes through, in which case veterancy is no assurance.
You make a point on the use of WP; I typically avoid it but certainly believe you on it being more effective (though I am not aware that it prevents tanks from firing). Still, it is not a free ability (for good reason) and is locked behind veterancy. Hardly reason alone to invest in a pack howitzer.
Understand that I am not asking for buffs to barrage unless the autoattack is nerfed or removed. |
If pak howie is overperforming, there is no need for a consolation buff.
And it's not overperforming, but since certain people keep crying about it every other week, we obviously need to do something with the unit so people can blame something else for poor unit preservation.
All these 'consolation buffs' regarding the barrage keep the unit relevant in its designed role while also requiring more micro, since the claim made by the pro-nerf crowd is that it is the lack of required user input with it's effective autofire which makes this thing so atrocious.
It's very telling that you refused to respond the first time I called you out on this.
(Edit: and nobody has called for the barrage to be improved if the nerf made was only something slight like price or teardown, the first nerf only making spam more difficult and bringing the unit closer to what it was back when it was a 6-man team, and the the second making it more vulnerable to counterfire) |
We could give it heat rounds by default. I would also think about giving it a 2.5 second brace so it can survive a walking stupa attack
Giving it brace makes no sense at all, this thing isn't an emplacement. Besides, it makes sense that the walking stuka should be able to (and does) counter the pack howitzer.
Plus, if you gave it HEAT by default, nobody would use the regular barrage, and even then the unit still probably wouldn't be worth the 340 manpower if it didn't have autofire.
Edit: I mean, maybe if cooldown/recharge got decreased, but idk. You have to remember scatter is worse on the HEAT barrage as well. |
Heat barrage has a fuse time. I mean, you could have the exact same argument about the Lefh or Ml20 or Priest. the 3 units you mention are actually much more deadly vs low health squads and all of them have a much higher survivability rate in case of being attacked.
I'm pretty certain the M1 Pack Howitzer vet 2 HEAT barrage is instant detonation on impact. I think you may be confused with the M21 vet 2 Delayed Fuse barrage which has a similar function (but is way better lol)
Point stands on the other howitzers, however, which is why the agony over compensating barrage if removing autofire makes no sense to me. |
Then don't hang low health squads around while shells are landing nearby? "My change" is exactly what happened to ISU152 , 120mm mortar, brumbarr, and several other powerful AOE weapons
Also as I just pointed out the HEAT barrage is very capable of killing things. It does 80+ damage in just under a 2.5 radius or so
Idk why you keep saying it's barrage needs to be good. They are good. You have 3 types to choose from, all of which are useful
The matter of the barrage needing to be good is a concern for if the AA gets nerfed or removed. As is, it is fine since it can complete niche tasks like barraging buildings. But for 340 manpower, the barrage alone is not justification and you would never see this unit again if that was its only real capability.
You also need veterancy for the two halfway useful barrages for the pack howitzer, HEAT (veterancy 2 iirc) and the less often used WP barrage (veterancy 1 iirc). The regular barrage only gets used for shelling the schwere panzer hq and falls away in that task once HEAT is available. It is too inaccurate and low-damage to keep an enemy off of, say, a capture point, and neither is it any more capable of displacing team weapons than the mortar is.
The barrage cooldown/recharge is also very high and, (again) were AA to be nerfed, would make follow-up fire very difficult
If the AA is not nerfed, I don't think anybody is going to be asking for a better barrage. |
I’ve been doing a study on WWII infantry tables of organization and equipment for the US, British and German forces. Real US infantry platoons had one sniper rifle that was unallocated to a specific man and kept as part of the Platoon Headquarters section with the Lieutenant. Additionally, there were no Thompsons at the platoon level and the Lieutenant himself would’ve had an M1 carbine.
At the Company level, the Captain has access to six unallocated Thompsons, six unallocated BARs and five unallocated Bazookas. He would also have been armed with an M1 carbine as would several other members of the Company Headquarters element unlike the Platoon HQ which would’ve all had M1 Garand rifles. Additionally, support elements in the weapons platoon of the company had M1919A4 or M1919A6 Machineguns and would be dispatched at the discrediting of the company commander (the Captain).
Considering all of that, here is how I would rework the USF officers.
Lieutenant: 5 man squad with 3 M1 Garands on Riflemen models, 1 M1 paratrooper carbine on the Lieutenant himself and 1 M1C sniper rifle on a Rifleman model. The squad has better vision than a regular Riflemen squad and has access to regular grenades and smoke grenades when teched and starts with an AT rifle grenade shot at Vet 0. No upgrades are available but can still take up to two weapons from the weapon racks. No changes to abilities or veterancy. This unit functions like a superior rifleman squad that can snipe at long range like a pathfinder squad, but with only one sniper rifle. It would also have less overlap with dedicated SMG units like Rangers and Paratroopers.
Captain: 5 man squad with 2 Riflemen models with M1 Garands, 1 Captain model with a Paratrooper stat M1 Carbine and 2 Rear Echelon models with the weaker Rear Echelon M1 Carbines. Abilities stay the same but has two mutually exclusive upgrade options. An M1919A6 upgrade for 70 munitions where one of the Rear Echelon models gains the LMG making the squad a dedicated long range squad that is good at supporting against infantry and a double bazooka upgrade for 100 munitions that gives the two Riflemen the Bazookas making the squad a good bazooka support squad but has almost no anti infantry ability. Squad abilities and veterancy remains the same. The squad can still upgrade with weapons from the weapon racks and still gains smoke grenades from the grenade tech.
Major: 4 man squad of three Rear echelon models with rear echelon M1 Carbines and 1 Major model with his trusty pistol. No other changes to abilities, but now he can be used to recrew weapons and is slightly less easy to wipe out, which should encourage using him more aggressively rather than just throwing him away.
I think these changes would make USF officers more unique and have better defined roles as well as encourage side teching to both LT and Captain and also better reflects the real US table of organization and equipment.
The major is already such a critical utility unit for USF, I cringe whenever I see people letting him get wiped so easily.
Recon planes, artillery, the forward retreat point.
If he gets upgraded to a 4 man squad I think he should lose weapon slots, since seeing people stack bazookas or even BARs on the Major squad just looks and feels dumb, particularly since his guys are supposed to be radiomen and shouldn't be carrying all this extra combat junk. |
The pakhowi already doesn't OS any full life squad so your first paragraph is out of subject, what you're proposing then isn't going to make its detractors happiest since it will be subject to kill more wounded models per shot. Low health squads are going to suffer much more from your change.
Again the pak howi cost the same as an elite squad and is perfectly and easily counterable by any kind of combat units, so I don't know why it shouldn't have the same killing power as such. From this reasonable point of view: or effectively you want to make it a real howitzer on barrage only and thus give it the firepower associated to it or leave it on AA mode as it is today. On both cases you'll meet people unhappy about it and just want it to be nerfed to oblivion.
This is essentially my take as well. Slow but consistent damage by autoattack or a much more useful barrage are the only way this unit stays effective.
Balance options, if we absolutely have to balance this shit:
1. Nerf/Remove AA, but make the barrage deadlier and/or cool down faster ( more shells is not a solution, as this would only of practical use versus buildings like the OKW trucks. Imagine if the Zis-3 barrage was twice as long but did only half damage; nobody would use it despite the same theoretical damage output)
2. Jack the price up to 400~ or so but make no other adjustments to the unit itself; one pack howitzer isn't going to be killing squads unless the axis player is braindead, and this way two pack howitzers is an even bigger investment than it already is. Note that the price of this unit before the crew reduction was 380 or so and people didn't bitch about it nearly as much.
3. Minor changes like increased setup/teardown times to make it harder to evade call-in strikes/counterbarrage, autoattack kept more or less as is, maybe a slight price nerf, maybe a very slight scatter increase to autoattack if that gets touched at all.
4. Keep the pack howitzer exactly as it is, but maybe buff ostheer counterbarrage to make axis idf a more effective counter. Either way the panzerwerfer's counterbarrage range is way shorter than normal and should probably get buffed anyway. |
The same way as before? I'm not saying remove auto-attack, just weaken it. Increase the reload time a little, and maybe decrease full health kill radius.
You could increase it's overall splash radius as well so that it still distributes good damage but doesn't kill full health squads as easily. They have done that with multiple AOE weapons
The pack howitzer can not kill full health squads. It'll do an absolute maximum damage of 68 in the near AOE iirc. Only the scott is still capable of actually killing models in one shot for whatever reason.
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