Pak Howitzer needs adjustment

The pakhowi already doesn't OS any full life squad so your first paragraph is out of subject, what you're proposing then isn't going to make its detractors happiest since it will be subject to kill more wounded models per shot. Low health squads are going to suffer much more from your change.

Then don't hang low health squads around while shells are landing nearby? "My change" is exactly what happened to ISU152 , 120mm mortar, brumbarr, and several other powerful AOE weapons

Also as I just pointed out the HEAT barrage is very capable of killing things. It does 80+ damage in just under a 2.5 radius or so

Idk why you keep saying it's barrage needs to be good. They are good. You have 3 types to choose from, all of which are useful

Then don't hang low health squads around while shells are landing nearby? "My change" is exactly what happened to ISU152 , 120mm mortar, brumbarr, and several other powerful AOE weapons

Also as I just pointed out the HEAT barrage is very capable of killing things. It does 80+ damage in just under a 2.5 radius or so

Idk why you keep saying it's barrage needs to be good. They are good. You have 3 types to choose from, all of which are useful

The matter of the barrage needing to be good is a concern for if the AA gets nerfed or removed. As is, it is fine since it can complete niche tasks like barraging buildings. But for 340 manpower, the barrage alone is not justification and you would never see this unit again if that was its only real capability.

You also need veterancy for the two halfway useful barrages for the pack howitzer, HEAT (veterancy 2 iirc) and the less often used WP barrage (veterancy 1 iirc). The regular barrage only gets used for shelling the schwere panzer hq and falls away in that task once HEAT is available. It is too inaccurate and low-damage to keep an enemy off of, say, a capture point, and neither is it any more capable of displacing team weapons than the mortar is.

The barrage cooldown/recharge is also very high and, (again) were AA to be nerfed, would make follow-up fire very difficult

If the AA is not nerfed, I don't think anybody is going to be asking for a better barrage.

He's been using that 2nd language to insult me for a good amount of time now, my "attack" is more than fair and had nothing to do with this thread. His entire argument had nothing to do with the thread, he just wanted to argue

Jump back to quoted post28 Jul 2019, 15:41 PMSkysTheLimit

I can't believe how many people reference that post for balance arguments. In the post Siphon literally says don't use for balance arguments. I mean most of that data comes from before the last patch...
Even if you could use it, it shows a whopping 4% difference in winrate, and that's for all rankings. The graph that breaks it up by ladder position shows the winrates fluxuating all over the place

Jump back to quoted post29 Jul 2019, 01:58 AMSkysTheLimit

At least try to explain what any of this has to do with the pak howitzer?
Not only are you putting way too much reliance on the data (2-5% advantage apparently equals "dominance" in your world) but what could you possibly deduce from those graphs that would tell you what to do about the pak Howy? Not surprising you avoided that question...

I never insulted you and answered each of your wrong assumed questions.

As for the thread. If the howie loses its autoattack, but gets barrage aoe buff. Is that a good tradeoff into a more micro dependent unit?

Then don't hang low health squads around while shells are landing nearby? "My change" is exactly what happened to ISU152 , 120mm mortar, brumbarr, and several other powerful AOE weapons

Also as I just pointed out the HEAT barrage is very capable of killing things. It does 80+ damage in just under a 2.5 radius or so

Idk why you keep saying it's barrage needs to be good. They are good. You have 3 types to choose from, all of which are useful

Heat barrage has a fuse time. I mean, you could have the exact same argument about the Lefh or Ml20 or Priest. the 3 units you mention are actually much more deadly vs low health squads and all of them have a much higher survivability rate in case of being attacked.

Heat barrage has a fuse time. I mean, you could have the exact same argument about the Lefh or Ml20 or Priest. the 3 units you mention are actually much more deadly vs low health squads and all of them have a much higher survivability rate in case of being attacked.

I'm pretty certain the M1 Pack Howitzer vet 2 HEAT barrage is instant detonation on impact. I think you may be confused with the M21 vet 2 Delayed Fuse barrage which has a similar function (but is way better lol)

Point stands on the other howitzers, however, which is why the agony over compensating barrage if removing autofire makes no sense to me.

We could give it heat rounds by default. I would also think about giving it a 2.5 second brace so it can survive a walking stupa attack

If pak howie is overperforming, there is no need for a consolation buff.

We could give it heat rounds by default. I would also think about giving it a 2.5 second brace so it can survive a walking stupa attack

Giving it brace makes no sense at all, this thing isn't an emplacement. Besides, it makes sense that the walking stuka should be able to (and does) counter the pack howitzer.

Plus, if you gave it HEAT by default, nobody would use the regular barrage, and even then the unit still probably wouldn't be worth the 340 manpower if it didn't have autofire.

Edit: I mean, maybe if cooldown/recharge got decreased, but idk. You have to remember scatter is worse on the HEAT barrage as well.

Heat would replace the normal barrage. Idk about the stuka, the walking stuka needs to be removed from mech. If not, a very short brace would help the pak howitzer survive.

If pak howie is overperforming, there is no need for a consolation buff.

And it's not overperforming, but since certain people keep crying about it every other week, we obviously need to do something with the unit so people can blame something else for poor unit preservation.

All these 'consolation buffs' regarding the barrage keep the unit relevant in its designed role while also requiring more micro, since the claim made by the pro-nerf crowd is that it is the lack of required user input with it's effective autofire which makes this thing so atrocious.

It's very telling that you refused to respond the first time I called you out on this.

(Edit: and nobody has called for the barrage to be improved if the nerf made was only something slight like price or teardown, the first nerf only making spam more difficult and bringing the unit closer to what it was back when it was a 6-man team, and the the second making it more vulnerable to counterfire)

I'm pretty certain the M1 Pack Howitzer vet 2 HEAT barrage is instant detonation on impact. I think you may be confused with the M21 vet 2 Delayed Fuse barrage which has a similar function (but is way better lol)

Point stands on the other howitzers, however, which is why the agony over compensating barrage if removing autofire makes no sense to me.

Ah yes true, was using the ht lately which make me confuse.

Heat barrage has a fuse time. I mean, you could have the exact same argument about the Lefh or Ml20 or Priest. the 3 units you mention are actually much more deadly vs low health squads and all of them have a much higher survivability rate in case of being attacked.

HEAT barrage does not have a fuse time

The 3 units you just mentioned all cost more MP and have a fuel cost? Would be interesting to add fuel cost to pak Howy with barrage buff/AA nerf

I never insulted you and answered each of your wrong assumed questions.

Lol okay buddy

Only one Axis faction is capable of having a mobile army, the other is heavily based around team weapons and a 4 man mainline infantry squad that needs to stop to get good dps. You can't just built nothing but Pios and Pgrens whenever you go up against USF, and of course G43's are doctrinal.

Have you missed the patch that allows early PGs and commander that allows 5 man grens?
both factions can play very mobile in terms of infantry if they are willing to.
Option being doctrinal is completely irrelevant, because it just happens that faction in question never NEEDS anything doctrinal - its all supplements for playstyle instead of building the strat around the doctrine.

You also need veterancy for the two halfway useful barrages for the pack howitzer, HEAT (veterancy 2 iirc) and the less often used WP barrage (veterancy 1 iirc). The regular barrage only gets used for shelling the schwere panzer hq and falls away in that task once HEAT is available. It is too inaccurate and low-damage to keep an enemy off of, say, a capture point, and neither is it any more capable of displacing team weapons than the mortar is.

Less often used WP barrage? I use that all the time. It's great to throw at aggressive bghqs to stall infantry, and it's awesome at doing exactly what you just said the regular barrage isn't great for: displacing weapon teams.

Good damage, blocks vision, AND slows them down if they try to retreat/re-position away from the barrage. Also temporarily disables main gun of tanks. So many reasons to use it

Getting a pak Howy to vet up is not difficult by any means. Only hard to keep alive if any rocket/heavy arty starts targeting it

Less often used WP barrage? I use that all the time. It's great to throw at aggressive bghqs to stall infantry, and it's awesome at doing exactly what you just said the regular barrage isn't great for: displacing weapon teams.

Good damage, blocks vision, AND slows them down if they try to retreat/re-position away from the barrage. Also temporarily disables main gun of tanks. So many reasons to use it

Getting a pak Howy to vet up is not difficult by any means. Only hard to keep alive if any rocket/heavy arty starts targeting it

I am sorry if my posts are not clear on the matter, but please understand I am largely arguing on the assumption that the AA nerf goes through, in which case veterancy is no assurance.

You make a point on the use of WP; I typically avoid it but certainly believe you on it being more effective (though I am not aware that it prevents tanks from firing). Still, it is not a free ability (for good reason) and is locked behind veterancy. Hardly reason alone to invest in a pack howitzer.

Understand that I am not asking for buffs to barrage unless the autoattack is nerfed or removed.

Have you missed the patch that allows early PGs and commander that allows 5 man grens?
both factions can play very mobile in terms of infantry if they are willing to.
Option being doctrinal is completely irrelevant, because it just happens that faction in question never NEEDS anything doctrinal - its all supplements for playstyle instead of building the strat around the doctrine.

If you think abilities being doctrinal is irrelevant (in this case they aren't) then why bother bringing up the German Infantry Doctrine and it's 5 man ability?

I am well aware of the fact that Pgrens come earlier, but apparently you missed the part where I said that you can't build your army around Pios and Pgrens. Sure, you can build some Pgrens early for some mobile firepower, but you will always invariably have to use team weapons and Grens because you don't get Pgrens right away, they are expensive, don't have snares, and Ostheer team weapons are especially good and not building any is most punishing for Ostheer. And even if both factions CAN play mobile with their infantry, it's undeniable that Ostheer is way worse at it, largely because of the strength and importance of Ostheer team weapons.

I am sorry if my posts are not clear on the matter, but please understand I am largely arguing on the assumption that the AA nerf goes through, in which case veterancy is no assurance.

You make a point on the use of WP; I typically avoid it but certainly believe you on it being more effective (though I am not aware that it prevents tanks from firing). Still, it is not a free ability (for good reason) and is locked behind veterancy. Hardly reason alone to invest in a pack howitzer.

Understand that I am not asking for buffs to barrage unless the autoattack is nerfed or removed.

Okay so we are mostly in agreement on what matters, cause Im with you on the last sentence there

The WP barrage is fantastic though, and its only 25 muni so very affordable. And it definitely prevents main gun firing, even for a short duration after leaving the WP smoke. This applies to friendly units as well

If you think abilities being doctrinal is irrelevant (in this case they aren't) then why bother bringing up the German Infantry Doctrine and it's 5 man ability?

I am well aware of the fact that Pgrens come earlier, but apparently you missed the part where I said that you can't build your army around Pios and Pgrens. Sure, you can build some Pgrens early for some mobile firepower, but you will always invariably have to use team weapons and Grens because you don't get Pgrens right away, they are expensive, don't have snares, and Ostheer team weapons are especially good and not building any is most punishing for Ostheer. And even if both factions CAN play mobile with their infantry, it's undeniable that Ostheer is way worse at it, largely because of the strength and importance of Ostheer team weapons.

You can build around pgrens. Just skip teamweapons all together and get flame half-tracks or 222's. I have never used mortars with ostheer and barely build mgs. At guns are the only teamweapon I feel are necessary. Pgrens with shreks and sprint is a good alternative if you pick the right doctrine.

I don't believe it can kill a squad, even given that caveat. One model yes, but there's a minimum spacing for infantry?

No, but that wasn't my point. How he word it, seem like units have a max damage of 68 when all mortars can still kill a full health model, it's just that it is heavily unlikely to happen. No normal indirect fire unit can kill any full health squads due to this changes and improved formations.

My only concern without removing AA is, why the unit have the current values compared to other similar units?

Let's say the AoE is fine, why it needs either it's current RoF or scatter values?

If coh2db stats are up to date:
-AA RoF:
Howie: 9.94s
120mm: 14.15
OH 81mm: 10.81s
ISG: 8.935

-Scatter (Angle/Distance Ratio/Distance offset)
Howie: 6/0.1/8
120mm: 10/0.1/10
81mm: 10/0.08/8
ISG: 6/0.1/5

-AoE (Radius, Distance near, Mid, Far)
Howie: 5, 1.5 (68dmg), 3 (40), 4.5 (20)
120mm: 6, 1.5, 3, 4.5
81mm: 4, 1, 2, 3
ISG: 4, 0.75 (68dmg), 1.5 (32), 2.25 (16)

No, but that wasn't my point. How he word it, seem like units have a max damage of 68 when all mortars can still kill a full health model, it's just that it is heavily unlikely to happen. No normal indirect fire unit can kill any full health squads due to this changes and improved formations.




My only concern without removing AA is, why the unit have the current values compared to other similar units?

Let's say the AoE is fine, why it needs either it's current RoF or scatter values?

If coh2db stats are up to date:
-AA RoF:
Howie: 9.94s
120mm: 14.15
OH 81mm: 10.81s
ISG: 8.935

-Scatter (Angle/Distance Ratio/Distance offset)
Howie: 6/0.1/8
120mm: 10/0.1/10
81mm: 10/0.08/8
ISG: 6/0.1/5

-AoE (Radius, Distance near, Mid, Far)
Howie: 5, 1.5 (68dmg), 3 (40), 4.5 (20)
120mm: 6, 1.5, 3, 4.5
81mm: 4, 1, 2, 3
ISG: 4, 0.75 (68dmg), 1.5 (32), 2.25 (16)

Probably because it's a 340 (formerly 380) manpower unit.

Howie: 340mp (250mp 55 fuel tech)
120mm: 310mp (don't even remember whats needed for this besides commander)
81mm (grw34): 240mp (80mp 10 fuel)
ISG: 270mp (300 MP 35 fuel)

I actually had no idea the stats for the ISG and Pack Howitzer were so similar, though I did know the former had better accuracy and a faster projectile. Higher ROF is surprising. If anything I find this sort of vindicative, but I already offered something like a minor scatter increase or rate of fire decrease back in page 2.

I would still very much rather price (particularly since this was part of the "nerf" moving from a 6-man to 5-man weapon team earlier) or some other modification as I am not sure how much of an impact on practical effectiveness this would have on the unit, being more RNG, but it beats redesigning this unit or nerfing it completely to hell. Could even involve raising howitzer crew cost and build time so that reinforcement is not much more efficient with the original crew.

And yes, apologies for the misunderstanding on the AOE scaling with regards to the 68 figure. In any case I've never witnessed light IDF kill a full health model and doubt I will often.