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Secret okw valentine meta |
Maybe is is right maybe M36 needs few nerf to give the Shermans 76mm, Easy8, Dozer upgradef time to shine.
Good thing people who argue against M36 nerfs don't open threads with that in mind then lol |
After studying the jdp4s stats in comparison with other units in its role, I have determined that it is op. Although you never see them being built due to their high cost, poor penetration, terrible movement speed, inability to self spot or chase, relatively worthless vet, inability to bounce anything with a higher caliber than the commissars pistol, inability to deal with infantry, being overshadowed in versatility by the similarly priced p4, and by role since it is much worse than the panther, katitof said that it is OP given his valuable experience in rank 2000 3v3 games. Sure, Bao, VonIvan and other top 1v1 players think the jdp4 is underperforming, but what really counts is the opinion of someone with over 10000 forum posts but under 500 hours of coh2 play time. His inability to see that the maxim retreats faster than the mg42 is a testament to his good judgement and fortitude in dealing with the complete bias that is the jagdpanzer 4
You realize the JP4 has the best armor of any non-doctrinal TD in the game, right? Certainly higher than any allied TD. Like, sub 50% penetration rates for medium tanks. Crazy that'd be an actual complaint about it lol
Also, it is funny that you literally say/admit it is overshadowed by the P4 and the Panther in your OP lmao
Maybe triple d is right and the P4 and P5 just need a few nerfs to give the JP4 time to shine. |
Other than those options, I don't want to see buffs to the main gun, because it really shouldn't be competing with the jackson or sherman 75 IMO. The .50 upgrade should be cheapened to be in line with the upgrade on other Shermans too.
What's the Mg upgrade cost for Ez8 right now? Is it 75 munitions or something? If it's higher than other shermans then I'd say by all means bring it down.
If you are getting the idea that the E8 MG upgrade costs more than the MG upgrade on regular Shermans from my thread, I must say that I was mistaken and made the comparison to the 76mm Sherman by accident. Both the M4A3 and the E8 .50 upgrade are IIRC 70 munitions. That is still more than Axis MG upgrades, and is more than the cost of the 76mm Sherman's MG upgrade, for some reason, but the price is consistent with the regular Sherman.
As for Rifle Co, with all the talk of adding units or vehicles, I wouldn't really be opposed to adding the Mechanized Combat Group from Mechanized Company in its entirety; both the WC51 and the M3 Halftrack. I would certainly prefer that to M1C Garand upgrade or SMG infantry or etc.
The fact that the ubiquitous M3 Halftrack is only present in one doctrine for USF is really about as strange as the fact that the main MG used by the faction is the .50 cal HMG... |
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Vipper is often disingenuous at best and deliberately misrepresents information at worst, but he is right about the 76mm Sherman tbh. With veterancy and Radio net it possesses the fastest ROF of any tank in the game (with regular shot, not the improved AP). Stock it (and the Soviet M4C) still may also still be the fastest at 4.something seconds on the reload time.
However, this talk of rebalancing allied TDs is hopeless because half the people who want them nerfed want them to be nerfed because they think their Panthers and Tigers should be an instant "I win" button on the battlefield, immune to damage from all but RNGesus, and thus lose penetration, and the other half want them to be nerfed because they are too effective versus medium tanks, requiring completely difference balance changes. The latter concern regarding medium tanks is IMO a legitimate concern but also hard to actualize, and is partisanly presented as a completely one-way street since nobody is willing to tackle the Panther in turn, which is even harder to fight with medium tanks than any of the allied TDs and requires allied TD deployment to fight off in the first place. |
A single round of testing is not an accurate yardstick for comparing tanks, and your thread is not going to go far if you're going to constantly deflect to "the tests!".
Historically, 76mm shermans were actually left behind in England for the invasion of France. The 75mm was doing a good enough job against tanks, but it's turret had substantially better HE performance. It wasn't until the newer models of german tanks started showing up that US armor realized that "oh, we're going to need better AT guns on our shermans!".
You see the same dynamic in the game. Vanilla sherman is good enough vs a fresh OST p4, but struggles with upgraded armor p4s. E8 also preforms significantly better than the vanilla sherman against panthers and tigers, but won't solo them.
Rifle company isn't in the meta because heavy cavalry does everything it does and more. If you want to see more doctrine variety in USF then heavy cav shouldn't be some omni-doctrine offering the best in infantry via the rangers, smoke, sandbags, and mines, and also the best in armor via pershing and super zook rangers.
While I agree Heavy Cav is omnipotent, it isn't far removed from your average tiger commander for Ostheer, for example. It just has doctrinal elite infantry instead of nondoc.
E8 is signifigantly better at getting a single lucky hit in on a heavier tank than a P4, sure. Is it worth 30 extra fuel and the drop in AI firepower to be marginally less helpless versus a Panther? On the historical 76mm front; the 76MM Sherman has not only (MUCH) better rate of fire but also better AI profile for the individual shells. It's no P4 or M4A3, but it's a long shot better than the M4A3E8, while also having the APCR shell with better penetration and reload time than the M4A3E8, and all of this is without a power creep series of buffs towards it. (The unit is so untouched it retains the borderline absurdly overpowered ROF from its Soviet days, which couples nicely with vet and radio net)
Not to mention the E8 is in arguably the worst USF commander, with most of its abilities being medicore or just useless.
The worst USF commander is Infantry. Rifle Company is actually pretty good now imo, though I agree it is overshadowed by Heavy Cav, in great deal due to the heavy tank buffs.
You did a test once. And EZ8 still won. P4 pens EZ8 around 50-60% of the time 5 penetrating shots are needed, while EZ8 pens 70-91% and 4 penetrating shots are needed. EZ8 has 0.75 moving accuracy as well. I believe P4 has a slightly higher RoF. These are significant advantages that make EZ8 a hardcounter.
If this is your definition of hard counter, you may as well say the P4 is a hard counter to the M4A3 or T-34/76.
Victory against a P4 is as much RNG as it would be for the P4 to beat the E8. It is hardly decisive and hardly a "hard counter". This would be more along the lines of Panther vs M4A3, or Panther versus M4A3E8 for that matter.
I'll do a whole 'nother series of tests if this is not convincing to you people. If I can figure out how to record on this machine, even produce video. |
Yea, just noticed I flipped the front armor, it should be -19 front +15 rear (P4 has 80 rear, vs 95 for the E8). As for the reload, I'm taking the average of the min/max, and then using the difference between them.
Yes, like I said, the P4 is better against infantry; that's not a surprise when looking at the stats.
As for the MG upgrade price, +70muni is pretty much standard for USF. It's 70muni on the 105mm Bulldozer, M4A3, and the E8. The exception is the M4A3(76), which is 60muni for some reason (and the hotkey changes from V to M).
Combat blitz is a fair point, but it's also important to note that the E8 gets non-doc, vet0 smoke as well.
+80hp, +60%/43%/41% pen, +50% moving accuracy, in exchange for -14.5% DPS against vehicles (ignoring the pen differences).
I absolutely could have sworn the M4A3 MG was 60muni, but it turns out you are right. I don't know what I was thinking of, maybe it was the 76mm like you say.
I know for a fact, however, that the rear armor of the Panzer IV J in live right now is 90, not 80. I checked in the attribute editor.
Also, does anyone know why the scatter on the M4A3E8's gun was nerfed? |
I just said "basically 100% pen ost medium" 91% is damn good. Yes it is a lousy version of the panther for 140 F. It's basically a tank that hardcounters all mediums including the OKW p4.
Go look at page 1 again and tell me that is the performance of a hard-counter unit.
If that doesn't convince you that you're mistaken, go somewhere else. This isn't a panther and it's not a TD, and neither is it anywhere close to the capability of either in the AT department.
If it was, maybe that would excuse the terrible AI, sure.
Hell, if you increased the price and mirrored panther Stats maybe this thing might actually have a place. |
Ez8 isn't supposed to be very good vs inf. It's mainly a brawler AT tank with 200+ armor and 800 health and a gun that always pen all ost mediums basically 100%. A step up from the T34/85 in every way except inf killing power.
720hp*
70% pen on OKW P4, OST vetted P4*
91% pen on unvetted OST P4*
So it's a lousy version of the Panther?
Could use a better reload time if nothing else.
EDIT: And there is 0 reason why the MG upgrade should be more expensive than on literally any other Sherman tank.
Page 2 Edit for people who just ignore Page 1:
M4A3E8 will take 19 seconds longer to kill a volks squad than P4
16 seconds longer than a T-34/76
and be only between 9-5 seconds faster in killing said squad than a Panther with and without, respectively, the MG upgrade.
Versus a P4 in a tank battle the trade only slimly favors the M4A3E8 with a sliver of health remaining.
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OKW P4 vs. USF E8. Things the E8 has better are in bold, since a + isn't always a good thing.
Defensive
+1 target size
+0.1 speed
+0.1 accel
+2 rotate
+19/15 armor
+80hp
Main Cannon
+75/50/45 pen
-0.5m Aoe radius
-0.25m "80 dmg distance"
+0.8 reload speed
+0.25 moving accuracy
-1.5 scatter angle
+0.075 distance offset
+0.14 distance max
Hull MG
-2.5dps at all ranges
Coax MG
-0.5dps to -2dps at all ranges
Turret MG
Better dps at 4-15m, worse at 0-3m, 16-35m
To me, that seems like a fair trade. The P4 has better AI power (but not much), while the E8 has better AT power. The E8 has the benefit of 50% better moving accuracy and a vehicle crew, too.
The difference in reload speed is actually between 1.3 and 0.7 iirc, and your armor stat is backwards as the OKW P4 has 234 armor compared to E8 215, and 90 rear armor compared to E8 95.
Further, with all due respect for your dilligence in providing a stat sheet, the P4 in tests has remarkably better AI performance, a cheaper MG upgrade, and on the topic of factional bonuses, an ability that grants it both better accuracy and mobility (combat blitz).
The trade seems to be 80 hp and marginally better alpha pen, but worse DPS against most vehicle or infantry targets. |
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