Profile of GI John 412

My point of putting royal engineer in T1 is to support, as said, they provide early capping power, close dps protection for sections/vicker mgs, to avoid easy rush, and flanking if opportunities appear, but they are still not dedicated cqb unit. Royal engineer as now already have decent dps (comparable with pioneer) and 0.9 target size, i think this is enough to be very effective if combined with sections in early game. Dont get me wrong, i definitely like Thompson smg but latest tech is too late, i suggest a side tech in T2, as Thompson and satchel will be more useful in early mid to mid game.

About your concern about counter sniper if UC is moved to T2, i think it will not a serious problem. As now, using UC for sinper hunting is not very effective, since UC is not fast, fragile and snare is everywhere. Meanwhile, UKF's sniper just got buff so counter snipe with him is easier and sure is a better choice, and you have more field present with RE in T1.

I believe RE in T1 will improve UKF early game, while Turning UC into a truly fighting LV in T2 will bring more diversity to UKF mid game/lv play.

All are fair points.

Any new special upgrade for Sappers would only make sense as part of Hammer since Anvil gets one currently. You’re right that it would come very late, but that doesn’t mean it would be useless, just situational. Doing it as side tech earlier just wouldn’t fit the progression model for UKF.

RE are decent already and I like them as a supporting unit for Tommies in tier 1. Adding additional incentive to get them by guaranteeing a future upgrade with both final tier tech choices would encourage players to build them early and keep them unupgraded in order to get the better upgrade later instead of only getting them as PIAT holders and repair guys.

Tommies must be good, maybe nerf them early game but boost them late game, why? bcs that's the only legit infantry unit that they have, not counting sappers as they're like a utility unit, look at other factions:

Ostheer: non-doctrinal: Grens, PG's, doctrinal - ostruppen, storms, jaegers, ass grens
OKW - non-doctrinal: volks, obers, (possibly sturms?), doctrinal - falls, fussilers, jaegers
soviets - non-doctrinal: cons, penals, doctrinal - guards, shocks, partisants(lol wut), DP guards and something else
USA - maybe bad example cuz they only have rifles, but they are very versatile unit and have a snare after all and can build up many things with proper doctrine, doctrinal - rangers, paras, ass engies, pathfinders and such.

While Brits only got Tommies and what else infantry units? commandos only? that's it? no wonder that Tommies must be good cuz it's only 1 unit, without a snare, needs upgrade to use grenades, cant build anything except sandbags and trenches, they are simple as that and that's the reason why i say they need buff for late game, and slight nerf for early game. Apart of that i'd give them some 2nd non doctrinal unit like SAS maybe or non doctrinal commandos which can get upgrades with the proper doctrine

A late game upgrade for Royal Engineers could be a way to give UKF some more options in the late game.

Anvil Tech unlocks the Heavy Sapper upgrade that is more defensively focused, why not add an “Assault Sapper” upgrade to Hammer Tech?

“Assault Sappers”: Gives the Royal Engineer squad two Thompsons and the ability to throw a satchel charge (copied from Penal Troops).

Now UKF has a non-doctrinal CQB unit, more incentive to invest in Royal Engineers and more incentive to go for the less desirable Hammer Tech.

It doesn’t override doctrinal CQB unit’s like Assault Infantry Sections, Commandos or Flamethrower Royal Engineers because of the later timing that Hammer would come at. If you need a CQB unit in the early game you’ll still need to go for a doctrinal solution, but if you chose a doctrine without a CQB unit then you’ll still be able to get one later if you choose to tech for it.

What about to adjust UKF base as well, so none of building and howitzers looking to the offmap direction?

Yes please.

Followup since my previous post is long.

Also to note that since officers aren't forced on the player, that does open up more room for elite infantry, so the impact on doctrines could balance out. I just don't think you would ever really end up calling in lmg paras or get 1919s on rifles when the captain can bring that much firepower though.

Also also, with USF having much less field presence due to not getting a free squad, maybe team weapons wouldnt need to be nerfed. But then that shifts USF far more towards being a weapon team based faction. Ostheer and even soviets can be pretty team weapons heavy, so I'm not sure that the game needs another team weapons faction.

Of course you could propose alternate positions for units in tech, and different tech timings/costs than the ones I guessed, but I don't see those working out much better. Most alternatives either make the m20 come much too soon, or much too late.

Anyway, I'd like to hear the specifics you have in mind. Mostly tech timings, and which units go where as I doubt my hypotheticals match up with yours.

Your points are all valid, but that doesn’t mean they’d be mutually exclusive with my idea either. I’ll make a new thread later with my exact ideas so we can talk about it.

It would require pretty in depth changes to a lot of prices for tech and team weapons in order to keep timings fair and balanced too. Once I have that new thread up I welcome any input you have.

To be honest it might prove to be a bad idea, but that’s why discussion is so important.

And that is one of the reasons why Ostheer should be used as benchmark when balancing the units.

+1

Ostheer/Wehrmacht is the best designed faction and should be the benchmark by which all others are defined by. Unfortunately what has happened is the often talked about power creep and the bastardization of the original factions. MG42 and Panzergrenadiers in the HQ are bad faction design and are NOT how it used to be. These changes were made to “fix” Ostheer because they were not as good as the new factions. The problem was never with Ostheer, but with the way OKW and USF were originally implemented. Current OKW and USF are much MUCH better designed after several big rehauls, but the damage was already done.

But USF would be a lot easier to balance if they didn't get free squads.

The USF officers are the bane of the faction. They don’t feel unique to the player, they are mandatory to get if you tech up and they are frustrating to play against because “why does he get free squads and I don’t?”.

Lieutenant and Captain need to be reworked into specialist squads that are NOT free, NOT mandatory with tech and NOT just fancy Riflemen.

I’d redo the USF tech structure to be more like Ostheer. You are forced to tech linearly from platoon to company to battalion command post. Officers are still available from each level of tech but you don’t get them for free and they are distinctly different from Riflemen.

Lieutenant- 5 man squad with 3 M1 Garands on Riflemen models, 1 Paratrooper M1 Carbine on the Lieutenant model and 1 M1C sniper rifle on a Pathfinder model. This squad is an anti sniper team/long range combat team that can help USF in long ranged fights that it normally struggles with. Ability is a sniper shot that kills one model instantly and is intended for countering a sniper if you get a flank off. Good in long ranged fights but can only pick up one weapon. This makes him situational as an anti sniper or long range unit, but is weaker than a rifleman squad at generalist duties.

Captain- 5 man squad with 4 Rear Echelon models with RE M1 Carbines and the Captain who has a Paratrooper M1 Carbine. Can upgrade to have double Bazookas or double M1919A6 LMGs making him a good support squad with his good upgrades, but is weak when not upgraded. These weapon upgrades reflect what actual weapons were held at the company level and would’ve been issued out at the direction of the company commander (a Captain).

Major- no rework needed to his abilities or armament, just increase squad size to 4 men and don’t give him for free with tech. 4 men is a slight buff to the squad, but since you have to buy him separately and not get if for free then a small buff seems reasonable.

End result? USF officers are all more specialized in their roles and are more appropriately armed per historical tables of organization and equipment. They are no longer mandatory, but are no longer free. This gives USF players more freedom to get team weapons without being forced to get a squad they don’t want or need, but is also means that playing against USF you don’t have an enemy that gets free squads just for teching up.