any tank used in battle during ww2, can be in a ww2 game. There is your line in case it hasn't been clear enough for the last 100 posts
But u dont care at all about how that tank is portrayed, thats my point
Doesnt matter that it has a forumla 1 engine, and is fast enough offroad to crush entire squads? Apparently not
Doesnt matter to u that these tanks appear in all sorts of fictional battles on fronts they never particpated in? |
Since you didn’t bother answering the question, I will.
Which question? I have responded to all of ur points
Built in 1945 is my cutoff. I would prefer the prototypes be less common than the things that actually fought, but that is secondary to competitive balance for me
To start off, I already said I didn’t like the US and UK fighting on the eastern front. My dislike for it is even greater than the BP.
Then whats the real problem here????? This is my entire point, if something that is commonplace in coh2 bothers u more than the BP, why are u even complaining about the BP?
If this was a new franchise that was trying to be authentic, i would understand ur point. But its not and it isnt....
If you look at top 200 in 2v2, overwatch is actually the most picked commander. In all 1v1 games Luftwaffe ground forces is most picked but that commander isn’t exactly meta either. This is the level you are roughly playing at, so it is way more applicable. There is a 1/5 change breakthrough is picked, if you’re facing OKW at all, which doesn’t have to be the case. Then the game also has to reach to point for your opponent to actually get a chance to deploy it. Choosing breakthrough also doesn’t mean that you go JT. So, I highly doubt you see one every game. You might encounter one every 1 in 10 games or so if we’re being generous. I guess the elefant is there but that’s not exactly a late war wunderwaffe.
I have been top200 in 2v2 multiple times, im barely out of it currently with sovs. U see JT and elefant much more than 1 out of 10 times, thats not generous at all |
Let's finally get the hell out of what's okay and what's not okay:
- A BP who has never been to the War is okay
- M1 Abrams whose appearance is as realistic as a BP in a war is not okay
- If the IS-7, which was produced in 1946, was added to the game, would it be okay?
- Or ARL-44 for Free France. The number 44 which means that the tank was designed in 1944 but started being produced in 1948 and has a World War I design, is that okay?
Where do we draw the line which tanks that were not in the war are OK and which are not.
Being completed while the war was going on works for me... I rly shouldnt have to explain the difference between 1945 and the 1970s, i would hope thats relatively obvious
But answer my question? Where do u draw the line for authenticity?
Its okay for tanks to be portrayed completely innacurately, as long as the models were real? Their speed and handling can be on par with modern cars, the battles they are fighting in can be completely fabricated, they can be reliably lazered from the sky by planes, they can be spotted by a flare launched from a mortar, but as long as the names and appearance are correct its still considered "authentic"?
That makes zero sense to me. The BP breaks immersion for u, but how the hell were u ever immersed in the first place??? |
why not?
I mean if we are to go full retard we could say that Germans pioneered the use of heavy all purpose combat vehicles with the Tiger chassis, USA followed suit and ended up with Abrams.
Since Abrams takes inspiration from WW2 it should be added in COH3.
why not?
Cuz they didnt even start physically building one until the 70s.... Of course BP is a stretch and unrealistic. Its just singificantly less unrealistic than an abrams....
that's about gameplay balancing choice... completely offtopic
Lol u a moderator now? Thats funny |
I guess you agree then that the availability of the Sturmtiger and the BP will be roughly equal. So, it follows that the only other thing we can look at is the timeline. In which case the BP is more immersion breaking than the ST. The BP probably isn’t limited to one, so I don’t know why you’re comparing your ideal scenario for the BP with the few months that the ST was broken. I’m not interested in what you think should happen but what is happening in reality. Right now, the ST and BP are going to have more or less the same availability. Even if the ST was a bit more common to see, it did fight in the period and place on which OKW is based. It has every right to be more common than the BP. The Pershing is also a rarely seen vehicle in COH2 but you still think it is on the level of the BP.
I am comparing the immersion of the entire games, not just the units included. If tanks being too fast for soldiers to dodge crushing doesnt break immersion for u, i dont see why the BP does. If a flare providing any kind of visual assistance in broad daylight doesnt break immersion, why does the BP?
U can say its different all u want, the result is the same. Coh2 was not historically immersive by any means
I guess nobody ever though of not overbuffing units. What a brilliant idea.
Well it happened constantly in coh2 so its a valid concern to bring up.....
Implying other options aren’t viable right now because of the ST and JT, is such a laughable statement.
Then its a good thing i didnt say that. I said that i was talking about the specific patch that launched ST meta:
Another way u limit it is by making other options viable, and avoid doing things like overbuffing ST (which caused the temporary period where u saw one every game)
Do u know what the word temporary means? I was not talking about right now for ST
JT and elefant on the other hand clearly dominate team games. Thats not even debateable, the stats literally back it up. Breakthrough and jaeger armor are the most popular commanders in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4... https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=month&statsSource=all&type=2v2&race=wermacht&timeStamp=1661990400
You can limit certain vehicles to one but that doesn’t mean you won’t see them every game.
OF course it doesnt, but it does require ppl to be much more careful with them. Rather than being able to replace them easily which happens all the time in team games due to resource float
I’m trying to figure out at roughly what point you considered something to be too inauthentic for COH.
ANd ive been wondering the same thing about u this whole time. U have no issue with tanks having absurd speed, flares providing reconaissance, the brits fighting on the eastern front, planes being able to track vehicles as if they have targeting computers. But suddenly a prototype shows up and NOW the game is inauthentic? That makes no sense at all
You can duck out of the example of little boy and fat man but the point obviously wasn’t about balance.
Ur point isnt about balance, but mine is. I care more about competitive balance than i do about history for the video game. THat doesnt mean history is unimportant, its just a secondary concern to balance...
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Controlling the frequency of a unit is almost impossible if it’s already a doctrinal call-in. If it is rarely used, Relic will buff it until it is a good pick in team games. The BP has also way more potential in 1v1 and 2v2 than the JT and ST currently have due to it being way less specialized. What makes you assume that the BP won’t see frequent usage? Accessibility is exactly the same for both of those vehicles.
I hope they limit "uber" units to 1 per game. Something i think they shouldve done in coh2 rather than dance back and forth between buffing and nerfing over and over again
Like i already said, id like the game to focus around mediums and lights. But if were already gonna have "uber" units, just make them fair
Another way u limit it is by making other options viable, and avoid doing things like overbuffing ST (which caused the temporary period where u saw one every game)
Just because COH had and will have immersion breaking elements, doesn’t mean we should open the floodgates. I don’t think USF needed a Pershing either but that doesn’t mean any immersion to be had in COH2 as a WW2 game is now completely gone.
I didnt say we should open the floodgates. I dont know how many times i have to tell u that i wouldnt be okay with the abrams while u insist thats what im saying
Im saying that i dont think the BP is any crazier than the liberties taken in coh1 and 2. Its a different way of pushing the limit, but its not any more immersion breaking than things like brits on the Eastern front. Or tanks being too fast for infantry to dodge being crushed...
The m1 Abrams would be MUCH crazier than anything theyve done.... U can drop that idea already
And if its not gonna stop u from buying the game, i dont rly know y ur even arguing with me. That is the entire original point i was objecting too.... |
You’re stating that this isn’t an authentic WW2 game, so the inclusion of the BP is fine. Then it follows that any inclusion (as long as it was designed during WW2 like you stated) is fine. Then little boy and fat man could be off-maps and every German unit can get IR StG44s. You should probably commit to that position instead of walking away from it every time I try to counter it.
Im not walking away from it. Im saying that the m1 Abrams is an absurd exaggeration of my argument
Little boy and fatman would be bad for gameplay reasons. Nobody wants to play an rts game where they can lose everything all at once to an uncounterable unit
It all depends on frequency. Irstgs on every single squad would be too much. Just like if BP is closing out every single game for brits it would be too much. Have to wait and see how its implemented
Irstgs in coh2 are good exanple of the right balance. Only available on elite squads thru specific doctrines. That itself is still an exaggeration but at least it was well limited
If you agree that the BP is more of a stretch than the JT and ST and some things are too unhistorical for COH, then we can formulate at what point something is too fictional for COH.
I didnt say i agree its more of a stretch, i said they are different. They are different stretches but the result is the same: breaking immersion from a realistic ww2 experience
Its only "more of a stretch" if the timeline is the only thing u care about. Why does BP bother ppl while tanks having nascar engines does not? I do not understand that
When you’re saying that you don’t expect Relic to keep the ruse up, that’s pretty synonymous with anything goes. If the fundamental disagreement here is that you don’t think COH should strive for some authenticity and I think it should, then there isn’t any point in discussing this further.
BUt the 1st two games didnt strive for authenticity, so why shuld the 3rd?
I would rly just like them to be honest. They were dishonest in coh2 when they said they would never add pershing because it didnt fit USF design. Then they added it
With BP they are at least acknowledging up front that they have gone in a more fictional direction. Is BP alone enough to stop you from buying the game? Cuz thats the main thing i don't understand |
If any liberty taken is acceptable because liberties were taken previously, it follows that anything goes. If we want to have ‘were designed by ww2 engineers’ as a condition, we can but that would lead to the inclusion of vehicles like tortoise or the centurion. It’s your and esxile’s argumentation that went down this line. I had to explain why the BP crossed a line, which is impossible
But i didnt say that any liberty is acceptable. For fucks sake
Saying that my argument justifies including m1 abrams was totally fucking absurd
I guess we can leave all of that aside and focus on the Black Prince in comparison to COH2 vehicles. The Jagdtiger and the Sturmtiger aren’t seen every match. They are extremely rare in 1v1 and 2v2 and less common than the KT. Moreover, these vehicles were used in the Ardennes, so their inclusion of a faction based around that makes sense. It’s an overrepresentation (a rare on at that) but not borderline fiction.
Im not talking about exsluvisely now. The ST dominated team game meta multiple times after certain patches
And the JT isnt rare at all otuside of 1v1. EXTREMELY common in all modes with 2 players or more
Overrepresenting vehicles that were there is not the same as including a vehicle that was finished two years after fighting ended in a particular theater. It’s like saying that giving the DAK a Stumtiger is the same as giving OKW a Sturmtiger. Off course, the timeline isn’t the only thing that matters but the game needs to cohere somewhat to it. The inclusion of specific theaters and parts of WW2 is pointless otherwise.
I didnt say its the same. Im not sure y i have to keep telling u what im not saying
My entire point is that relic has a pattern of ignoring history. U can say BP is further our of timeline than other violations. Fine. But its well within their overall pattern of ignoring history/realism
The speed of tanks offroad in coh2, the accuracy of air to ground attacks, the frequency of heavy tanks, flares providing recon (lol), US and Brits fighting regularly on the eastern front, the list goes on. Sure those arent the same as including BP, but they break immersion enough for me that i dont expect relic to try to keep up the ruse of this being an authentic ww2 game
Why are you fine with the inclusion of the BP if you didn’t like the Sturmtiger and Jagdtiger. You’re taking a gamble as far as frequency of the BP goes and it makes the inclusion of vehicles like the King Tiger fair game. I don’t understand at all how you can say with a straight face that the Maus would be fine.
I literally said "i dont mind the violation"..... THe only part about ST and JT that bothered me was how much they dominated team meta at certain points. BP will bother me the same if it does, but the game isnt even out yet so i have no idea how common it will be......
I can say what i did about the maus because its a video game, not a fucking history class. LIke i already said i would prefer neither BP or Maus cuz i think it makes the gameplay boring
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You didn’t answer my question. Can we include the Maus because COH has taken liberties before? You’re basically arguing none of it matters anyway, so we might as well add an M1 Abrams too. Maybe the US can get an atomic bomb ability too. At what point do YOU draw a line?
I didnt answer it because been asked a dozen times already. If maus were balanced i wouldnt care. This isnt about axis v allies and im really bored of ppl trying to turn the conversation into that
But stop it with that m1 abrams crap. Dont act like me saying im accepting a prototype from 1945 is the same as being okay with a tank that saw its first action in 1980. THats just a ridiculous exaggeration
At least maus and BP were actually designed by ww2 engineers. ANd were being built during the war
You can make the argument that the Black Prince isn’t more of a liberty to take than the Pershing but saying anything goes because liberties were taken before doesn’t make sense.
THen its a good thing i didnt say anything goes. I just dont think the gap between BP inclusion and Relics already taken liberties is as large as u do
Its not just about timeline, unit frequency matters just as much imo. COh2s meta has had things like Sturmtiger and Jagdtiger be units that were seen in almost every match. That is not at all reasonable by history standards either, but its a video game so i dont mind that violation. ITs effect on gameplay variety bothers me more than the insult to historians
If BP shows its face every game then i will have problems with that. But thats more for gameplay reasons, i think uber units in general make the gameplay more stale |
Besides that, we should probably want the internal design and look of each faction to be consistent with what they’re based on. Even in COH2, which might have some holistic immersion breaking moments, the individual factions don’t have units that are out of place on the level of the BP.
Pershing is definitely out of place for USF. They were supposed to be pre/during battle of the bulge, and relatively resource strapped (compared to USA military as a whole)
Its so out of place that Relic didnt even try to make it a tru heavy. THey just made it a super medium. Its mobility is off the charts compared to all the other heavy tanks |
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