since we are adding prototype tanks in game

Yes, that's another reason why I'm against the Black Prince. For Relic to start keeping its damn words. First, stating that historicity and authenticity are important to us, and we listen to the community. And then they themselves broke their promises.

So im starting to think we agree on more than we disagree

I guess where u lose me is i dont understand the surprise (for lack of abetter word) Or why this is enough to make u not buy coh3

Is BP the straw that broke the camels back then? Cuz my opinion is that the back was broken a long time ago, but the core of the gameplay is still great imo so i still enjoy it

So im starting to think we agree on more than we disagree

I guess where u lose me is i dont understand the surprise (for lack of abetter word) Or why this is enough to make u not buy coh3

Is BP the straw that broke the camels back then? Cuz my opinion is that the back was broken a long time ago, but the core of the gameplay is still great imo so i still enjoy it

In general, this is a set of solutions:
- The choice of the Italian theater of war and not making Italy a separate playable faction at the start, which just ruined my interest. I'm not interested in playing the same factions a third time
- Single player campaigns. Again, having taken Italy, we do not have an Italian Campaign. What is the meaning of this theatre? A dynamic campaign is an extremely boring and lazy choice.
- The Black Prince, which ruins the authenticity for me quite a lot and opens the way to paper factions and units.

All this just devalues the gameplay.

I would argue a lot lot lot about Cuck Prince etc. but I just received word my grant application for a huge sum was granted. My career levels up as of today. Hope to be talking to you soon. Take care of my Wehrmacht tank.

Where do u see this myth? I live in the US, very few ppl here are still under the impression that US is always the good guy

Iraq war is a hilarious example, it literally proves the opposite. It is constantly cited as an example of our government completely abusing its authority. Has a very similar view to that of vietnam, waste of lives to accomplish the goals of a few assholes

I live in Europe and it was part of Blair's argument in joining the war in Iraq.

I even see it today in the papers for other wars and no I am not talking only about the USA.

From Ancient times brutal acts of war have been "justified" by a noble causes like religion but in the last around 100 years "democracy" has been used as alibi for a number of wars including WWII.

Since at a point it was mentioned that the BP wasn't about gameplay. Or that this is not authentic. Thought id see what Relics thoughts on the subject were. North Afrika Recap 32 minutes in. Just some excerpts from it below but obviously listen to understand their take on the product.

"We also have to make some choices about representation of units that you know, there are things may be from a timeline perspective you feel, do we want to emphasize gameplay over like pure authenticity? And people can im sure can remember this from uhhh earlier games with the Kingtiger Jagdtiger or units vehicles that in the real world were extremely rare. We want to include that stuff in the game but we have to be a bit careful about it and decide, is it worth it for the gameplay to do this?"

Sacha Narine

"We think about authenticity vs accuracy a bit differently."

John Tabbernor

"Company of Heroes the whole franchise and legacy is that we do, were not just concrete on historical accuracy. We do kind of blend into this world of like you know these are just cool toys and at the end of the day wed like to just get them into the game for players to make use of. Uhhh you know Sacha has already eluded to some of the previous games and this series its no different.

Matt Philip

So they have mentioned the liberties on the Kingtiger and the Jagdtiger were done for Gameplay, and look its the same intent for the Black Prince. I didn't see pitchforks about Stock KTs though. Again, numbers and specific history never mattered to relic. Invincible stukas in abilities, pin point accurate STs are just the beginning of a list that shows how a suspension of belief was already present in the game.

They make alot of mention of toys in the toolbox, and admit they don't think it saw deployment, but are quick to mention that they weren't shy to over represent units that are now franchise hallmarks despite rarity.

Since at a point it was mentioned that the BP wasn't about gameplay. Or that this is not authentic. Thought id see what Relics thoughts on the subject were. North Afrika Recap 32 minutes in. Just some excerpts from it below but obviously listen to understand their take on the product.

"We also have to make some choices about representation of units that you know, there are things may be from a timeline perspective you feel, do we want to emphasize gameplay over like pure authenticity? And people can im sure can remember this from uhhh earlier games with the Kingtiger Jagdtiger or units vehicles that in the real world were extremely rare. We want to include that stuff in the game but we have to be a bit careful about it and decide, is it worth it for the gameplay to do this?"

Sacha Narine

"We think about authenticity vs accuracy a bit differently."

John Tabbernor

"Company of Heroes the whole franchise and legacy is that we do, were not just concrete on historical accuracy. We do kind of blend into this world of like you know these are just cool toys and at the end of the day wed like to just get them into the game for players to make use of. Uhhh you know Sacha has already eluded to some of the previous games and this series its no different, without a clear and precise answer - why is there a prototype in the game.

Matt Philip

So they have mentioned the liberties on the Kingtiger and the Jagdtiger were done for Gameplay, and look its the same intent for the Black Prince. I didn't see pitchforks about Stock KTs though. Again, numbers and specific history never mattered to relic. Invincible stukas in abilities, pin point accurate STs are just the beginning of a list that shows how a suspension of belief was already present in the game.

They make alot of mention of toys in the toolbox, and admit they don't think it saw deployment, but are quick to mention that they weren't shy to over represent units that are now franchise hallmarks despite rarity.

Absurd and ridiculous excuses. There are no pitchforks against the King Tiger and Against the JagdTiger because these tanks were and were used in the war. All excuses about the Black Prince came down to cool toys.

Absurd and ridiculous excuses. There are no pitchforks against the King Tiger and Against the JagdTiger because these tanks were and were used in the war. All excuses about the Black Prince came down to cool toys.

They were referring to all the questionable vehicle they've added when they used the term toys. I mean its there to watch and listen so you can understand their reasoning. But if you want to tailor their statement go ahead its there to watch. They have added questionable units across the franchise to improve gameplay and make an attractive IP. German toys and allied ones alike. Not really earth shattering news.

Just give it a speed advantage to match KT's. Seriously.

I would much much rather "lose" the historical authenticity of the moving speed of a tank than insert a whole new paper machine in the game.

Between having a "paper tank" and a souped up Churchill with nitro, overcharged engine and a spoiler at the back, I'd take the "paper tank". If I wanted to have WW2 represented to the tee, I'd play Gates of Hell: Ostfront.

I mean we're already playing a game where the Pak 43 doesn't fucking explode Shermans in one shot. A game where a squad of 5 highly trained rangers miss more than 50 percent of their shots on a squad running past them because they decided to run home instead of staying on the battlefield. A game where home bases are built barely 500 meters away from each other. A game where Panthers never have transmission issues (or any of the other tanks for that matter). A game where someone can survive being shot with a 50 cal. A game where infantry engagements end at 35 meters...

The game takes liberties for the sake of being fun is all I'm saying. I still would rather they quit building games around le medium and hoovy tanks.

They were referring to all the questionable vehicle they've added when they used the term toys. I mean its there to watch and listen so you can understand their reasoning. But if you want to tailor their statement go ahead its there to watch. They have added questionable units across the franchise to improve gameplay and make an attractive IP. German toys and allied ones alike. Not really earth shattering news.

What? Questionable tanks? Does anyone have doubts that the King Tiger participated in the war? Or JagdTiger or SturmTiger? It's that mythical tanks, which everyone is talking about and not finding evidence of participation in the archives? these statements are so absurd. Any tank presented in the game was, was at war. Which is questionable. Or maybe I don’t know something and it’s time to doubt that the T-34 or Sherman was also in the war?

You can be obstinate to the point a few people are trying to express you if you wish, but relic have essentially admitted they know that their IP contains a lot of fiction. Such as the rarity of the KT and Jagdtiger however to improve gameplay and make a fun product they are a franchise staple of common appearance. They go on to state that this chapter isn't any different.

I mean id love to see the drone b17 bombers that were meant to blow up targets remotely, they did poorly but since they were used once it meets the threshold for inclusion that some are making. Since its ok to fictionalize the units performance it would be above the mark, even though they never once hit a target.

Just as there is very poor performance on the tactical history of the strumtiger but it was used in that role poorly or not and its been given a fantastic gameplay place, regardless of being highly fictional.

That is the point I find funny, if we can fictionalize units operational lives to the point of reinforcing myth and this is the camels back broken in two, its funny.

I live in Europe and it was part of Blair's argument in joining the war in Iraq.

I even see it today in the papers for other wars and no I am not talking only about the USA.

From Ancient times brutal acts of war have been "justified" by a noble causes like religion but in the last around 100 years "democracy" has been used as alibi for a number of wars including WWII.

Yes of course, but the "historical community" is hardly responsible for those myths. If anything they r the ones putting in the most effort to scrap them. Delusional politicians in every country r usually the ones propping up their country (mostly because they r leading it)

But i dont rly see how "democracy" was an excuse in ww2. Maybe once it started it was part of the propaganda, but pretty much everyone ignored the nazis until they started attacking (or until being attacked by japan in the case of USA)

You can be obstinate to the point a few people are trying to express you if you wish, but relic have essentially admitted they know that their IP contains a lot of fiction. Such as the rarity of the KT and Jagdtiger however to improve gameplay and make a fun product they are a franchise staple of common appearance. They go on to state that this chapter isn't any different.

I mean id love to see the drone b17 bombers that were meant to blow up targets remotely, they did poorly but since they were used once it meets the threshold for inclusion that some are making. Since its ok to fictionalize the units performance it would be above the mark, even though they never once hit a target.

Just as there is very poor performance on the tactical history of the strumtiger but it was used in that role poorly or not and its been given a fantastic gameplay place, regardless of being highly fictional.

That is the point I find funny, if we can fictionalize units operational lives to the point of reinforcing myth and this is the camels back broken in two, its funny.

Exactly. These guys look at: 1, 2, 3 it and think: -What the hell is this? This a fiction, there were no such tanks in the war! Let's add our fictional Black Prince then!

And how about the 3 allied factions consistently fighting alongside each other? Especially with the soviets. Its one thing for the brits and US to work together, that actually happened

But for soviets to be frequently fighting next to US or brits?

I agree thats different than including the BP, but thats not the point. The point is: Why does the BP break immersion for some ppl when the above example does not?

Seeing Soviets and Americans fighting side by side is honestly more immersion breaking than the BP.
I can’t draw a line on where my immersion is totally broken but unnecessary inclusions of experimental vehicles doesn’t help that. I usually cringe a bit when I see the Soviets and the Americans/British side by side and I’ll probably slighty cringe when I see the BP in North Africa. Even seeing Panthers in North Africa is a bit immersion breaking, but that is a sacrifice I can live with. I can easily turn your question around though. Does the US and USSR fighting together make the inclusion of the MAUS ok? Just because they are already immersion breaking elements doesn’t mean anything goes.

Besides that, we should probably want the internal design and look of each faction to be consistent with what they’re based on. Even in COH2, which might have some holistic immersion breaking moments, the individual factions don’t have units that are out of place on the level of the BP.

Besides that, we should probably want the internal design and look of each faction to be consistent with what they’re based on. Even in COH2, which might have some holistic immersion breaking moments, the individual factions don’t have units that are out of place on the level of the BP.

Pershing is definitely out of place for USF. They were supposed to be pre/during battle of the bulge, and relatively resource strapped (compared to USA military as a whole)

Its so out of place that Relic didnt even try to make it a tru heavy. THey just made it a super medium. Its mobility is off the charts compared to all the other heavy tanks

I hope the mods will forgive me this transgression...

Pershing is definitely out of place for USF. They were supposed to be pre/during battle of the bulge, and relatively resource strapped (compared to USA military as a whole)

Its so out of place that Relic didnt even try to make it a tru heavy. THey just made it a super medium. Its mobility is off the charts compared to all the other heavy tanks

And Airborn troops should be made stock since they were already on the field, and Typhoons/Spitfires rolling all over the sky after 10 minutes mark each game since the bad weather only last couple of days and the most evident of all: OKW should run out of fuel around 40 minutes mark to well represent the reality of what have been the battle of bulges.

Now would it be funniest to play vs a faction that have elite infantry as mainline troops, planes rolling over the map every minutes and a tick down to 40 minutes before automatic surrender? Or just add a Pershing for the sake of cool and gameplay.

Same goes for Coh3 and black Prince.

And Airborn troops should be made stock since they were already on the field, and Typhoons/Spitfires rolling all over the sky after 10 minutes mark each game since the bad weather only last couple of days and the most evident of all: OKW should run out of fuel around 40 minutes mark to well represent the reality of what have been the battle of bulges.

Now would it be funniest to play vs a faction that have elite infantry as mainline troops, planes rolling over the map every minutes and a tick down to 40 minutes before automatic surrender? Or just add a Pershing for the sake of cool and gameplay.

Same goes for Coh3 and black Prince.

Pershing is definitely out of place for USF. They were supposed to be pre/during battle of the bulge, and relatively resource strapped (compared to USA military as a whole)

Its so out of place that Relic didnt even try to make it a tru heavy. THey just made it a super medium. Its mobility is off the charts compared to all the other heavy tanks

You didn’t answer my question. Can we include the Maus because COH has taken liberties before? You’re basically arguing none of it matters anyway, so we might as well add an M1 Abrams too. Maybe the US can get an atomic bomb ability too. At what point do YOU draw a line?

The Pershing is out of place, but not to the degree the Black Prince is. We are talking about a 1-2 month difference for the Pershing and a 2 year difference for the Black Prince. If Relic wanted to give USF a vehicle that was finished in December 1946 I would be against that too. Again, I can’t draw the definitive line of what is acceptable. I can only point out why the Black Prince goes way further than any other vehicles.

Honestly, this discussion is pretty dumb and mostly revolves around a continuum fallacy. It’s like asking at what point something is a WW2 game and at what point it ceases to be one. I can only point out that the Black Prince is much more of a liberty in the context of the North Africa campaign than anything we have seen before. You can make the argument that the Black Prince isn’t more of a liberty to take than the Pershing but saying anything goes because liberties were taken before doesn’t make sense.

Honestly, this discussion is pretty dumb and mostly revolves around a continuum fallacy. It’s like asking at what point something is a WW2 game and at what point it ceases to be one. I can only point out that the Black Prince is much more of a liberty in the context of the North Africa campaign than anything we have seen before. You can make the argument that the Black Prince isn’t more of a liberty to take than the Pershing but saying anything goes because liberties were taken before doesn’t make sense.

Does it impacts the game and immersion for the playerbase? Pretty sure it's a nope.

Does it impacts the game and immersion for the playerbase? Pretty sure it's a nope.

It does to me, with out adding anything imo.

You didn’t answer my question. Can we include the Maus because COH has taken liberties before? You’re basically arguing none of it matters anyway, so we might as well add an M1 Abrams too. Maybe the US can get an atomic bomb ability too. At what point do YOU draw a line?

I didnt answer it because been asked a dozen times already. If maus were balanced i wouldnt care. This isnt about axis v allies and im really bored of ppl trying to turn the conversation into that

But stop it with that m1 abrams crap. Dont act like me saying im accepting a prototype from 1945 is the same as being okay with a tank that saw its first action in 1980. THats just a ridiculous exaggeration

At least maus and BP were actually designed by ww2 engineers. ANd were being built during the war

You can make the argument that the Black Prince isn’t more of a liberty to take than the Pershing but saying anything goes because liberties were taken before doesn’t make sense.

THen its a good thing i didnt say anything goes. I just dont think the gap between BP inclusion and Relics already taken liberties is as large as u do

Its not just about timeline, unit frequency matters just as much imo. COh2s meta has had things like Sturmtiger and Jagdtiger be units that were seen in almost every match. That is not at all reasonable by history standards either, but its a video game so i dont mind that violation. ITs effect on gameplay variety bothers me more than the insult to historians

If BP shows its face every game then i will have problems with that. But thats more for gameplay reasons, i think uber units in general make the gameplay more stale