MP40 upgrade is doctrinal as well. Doctrinal or not, volks MP40s have to fight stronger mainlines then cons. If cons have to fight weaker mainlines, why do they need equivalent or stronger upgrades then volks?
because conscripts also need to contend with nondoc elites like PG and obers...sure allied mainlines are stronger but the allies generally dont have nondoc elite squads to backup their main line... unfortunately SOV has neither nondoc elites (that are comparable) nor strong mainline infantry...
Another way to look at it is that cons aren't too weak, rifles and IS are too strong.
while i do agree with this statement i would also like to add that conscripts are a bit bad themselves... not because of their combat ability but because of their teching... it would be fine if AT nades and molotov werent free but conscripts had combat abilities on par with IS or rifles... but as it stands conscripts just arent good enough to justify having to buy AT nades and molly separately... just unlock AT nades and molly through the first tech building or something and be done with it.... |
Well if we are going to include elite infantry/doctrines, you will have to include gaurds shocks paratroopers and rangers all of which are commonplace due to being in meta doctrines.
cons PPSH is doctrinal too and has to contend with infantry that outright outclass it...
But then point was that the allied mainline infantry is stronger on average then the axis mainline infantry-with the notable exception of conscripts. And mainline infantry isnt called "mainline" for nothing.
thats an excellent point... allied infantry is stronger except for soviet infantry which is currently weaker than axis infantry due to expensive upgrade costs... this is a good argument for a conscript buff in either combat ability or the removal of AT/molly research....... |
Am I the only one that thinks that cons are fine as they are? Slap a 7 man upgrade and with low reinforce cost you have a good spammy tactic vs obers and other s***. PPSH upgrade maybe needs a reduction to 45 muni, that much CAN be true. I don't think cons were ever meant to be scalable to elite level. They are cheap, good in number and can overwhelm the opponent with flanking. They are excellent on flanks. Nobody really uses that. Take 3 con squads, run them against the margins of the map, flank the enemy while you push with T34s. Later on, use them to sprint and snare heavier tanks after you damage then with SU85 focus. Why cons would need some elite level upgrades and malarkey like that.... I have no clue.
the problem with conscripts is that earlygame you invest additional mp and fuel on AT nades/molly... stuff that axis squads get for free with tech... nondoctrinally conscripts also suffer due to their extremely late weapon upgrade and cons PPSH specifically suffers from being underpowered... |
Well what sanders and sky have been alluding to is you have to consider things like the squads volks and cons will be facing. PPSH cons will be facing off against Stg volks and lmg grens while mp40 volks are going to be facing BAR rifles and 5man Bren IS. Looking at it in this context, volks NEED that leg up since they are going to be fighting stronger squads on average.
That said, PPSH cons do have some scaling issues and an increase to recieved veterency can help ensure that they achieve scalability through cons excellent veterency.
see this is how you argue... take notes skysthelimit...
anyways yeah volks do face off against BAR rifles and bren IS... but nowadays conscripts usually face off against 5 man grens panzergrens falls obers and panzerfusiliers all of which outclass conscripts significantly... i think its fair to say with the current meta it may be wise to step up conscripts aswell... |
Cant say for 1v1 but Ost is worst in 2v2.
id say ost is more obnoxious in 2v2 tbh... its far easier to take advantage of ost`s weaknesses in 1v1s |
Lol you are such a troll. I pointed out to you multiple times that sprint is extra valuable to a cqc squad
yes on top of a million other nonsensical arguments... had you limited your argument to synergy with oorah and vet 3 and elaborating it from there instead of citing refutable points you would have made a much stronger case...
just look at how you argue in comparison to pip
Yes and I have given you multiple specific examples of that design, which you have continually ignored. Cons are more survivable, cheaper to reinforce, they have oorah. All 3 of those things directly apply to helping with use of the ppsh upgrade
vs
Sprint on a CQC squad is perhaps one of the strongest abilities they can have. It means that a squad they attempt to close in on, unless they throw a grenade (Which can be dodged) cannot possibly escape from them, unless they too have a sprint.
If your CQC squad has the ability to win against the opposing squad at close range, and you manage to avoid losing everything during closing in, you have forced a retreat at best, and a wipe at worst against whichever squad you don't like the look of. CQC squads without sprints can be kited around by infantry.
This assumes a lack of outside interference, obviously. It's messy otherwise.
the latter is far more elaborated and is much better organized than your arguments are... he has a focal point which is elaborated to why he thinks that way instead of citing all of the points he "thinks" helps and does not elaborate in any way shape or form... it leaves the opposition to "guess" the logic behind the claimant which leads to issues such as strawman fallacies and whatnot... |
Firstly, volks cost you more, start from that. Secondly stock cons can and will beat stock volks at close range, and thats how cons are supposed to be used in a first place. Its harded to charge and beat volks, then grens, its true. But they are rufly that ~20 additional MP harder to beat then grens. Cons have sprint for that excact reason to be used upclose.
yeah normally you would be correct ever since the volk nerf... the issue is trying to match volks with conscripts is not doable as conscripts have an additional setup cost for molotov AND at grenades while OKW gets it for free... this is why the meta against OKW isnt trying to match them conscript per volk which ties in to the second point...
Yeah, because both Ost and OKW has access to UC\M3\Jeep equvalent from the get go, its so unfair that soviets have to unlock AT nades facing supperior vehicles from 1 minute mark. Ppl keep bringing this stuff up, completly ignoring the fact that axis dont have any early vehicles aside from kubel what so ever. But at any point for OKW nades and faust should be swaped anyway. Nade after set up, faust after call in.
if youre trying to match OKW in conscript per volk you dont actually expect to see an M3 at all... however it also isnt feasable to match OKW conscript per volk for the reason i pointed out earlier... instead the meta against OKW is easily M3>penal and not conscript spam.... this is because 1. cons spam cannot match volk spam and 2. the M3>penal can abuse OKW much more easily
Synergy is simple. PPSH cons are direct upgrade to cons usage. Upgrade to make squad made to be used upclose, have upclose DPS boost. Volks MP40 makes them into different squad completly.
not really but ill get to that in a bit...
Not to mention that with each volk MP40 model dead, ppsh cons wont lose DPS from PPSH until 4 models are dead.
i hope you know that overall this is a disadvantage not an advantage....
Also you are still trying to compare PPSH cons to MP40 for unknown reason. Thouse are 2 completly different upgrades, the only common thing is that they are both locked behind commander. PPSH is a base utility upgrade, MP40 is a role changer. If anything MP40 volks should be compared with SVT cons.
id say 7 man seems to enhance the base role of conscripts... conscripts are a delaying squad and a damage sponge for units with greater firepower till they get veterancy while sporting close range DPS... 7 man directly contributes to that... PPSH not soo much... PPSH actually forces cons to go on the offensive and to charge the opponent instead of trying to delay... cons ppsh definitely qualifies as a role changer and the compaison is completely valid
SVT cons are great and 7-men are great, PPSH package is just weaker in comparacent, but its still a solid and good upgrade overall, and vet 3 cons with it are very good aswell.
yeah vet 3 cons are good... but honestly i dont think good vet 3 justifies bad vet 0 performance... not exactly a design decision i agree with... but then again maybe 6x ppsh might be dangerous thanks to vet 3 performance especially as the PPSH`s performance will scale directly with vet... in any case there is no justification as to why the MP40 should outclass PPSH soo a buff to PPSH must be done...
maybe give cons ppsh the 20% vet boost plus an HE nade or smoke and a cost reduction... though i doubt a vet boost alone is enough... |
Look dude it isn't an advantage to be doing less damage no matter the reason.
Lower damage is merely a by-product of the higher suppression. The higher suppression is the advantage, merely because it comes with the lower damage does NOT mean that the lower damage itself is in any way advantageous.
Please stop trying to make this argument, it's absolutely nonsensical.
i understood the argument just fine... i was merely attempting to correct grammar... |
Sprint on a CQC squad is perhaps one of the strongest abilities they can have. It means that a squad they attempt to close in on, unless they throw a grenade (Which can be dodged) cannot possibly escape from them, unless they too have a sprint.
If your CQC squad has the ability to win against the opposing squad at close range, and you manage to avoid losing everything during closing in, you have forced a retreat at best, and a wipe at worst against whichever squad you don't like the look of. CQC squads without sprints can be kited around by infantry.
This assumes a lack of outside interference, obviously. It's messy otherwise.
this is a much better argument than any of skysthelimit`s arguments... yes sprint has massive synergy with cqc squads... but so does smoke... it can easily be used both offensively and defensively just like sprint and has additional utility uses... |
Once again, you are still doing balance wrong. They fight a lot more than just each other, and I wasn't talking about "base volks", I have no idea what you're trying to say here
the point is those advantages youve mentioned exist in the base conscript vs volksgrenadier matchup and it DOEST HELP... conscripts are still considered worse than volksgrenadiers despite having all those advantages
if base volk > base cons and MP40 upgrade >>> ppsh upgrade then volk + mp40 > cons + ppsh
The fact that you think reinforce cost and survivability don't matter to a cqc squad is just absurd
reinforce costs and survivability are balanced by DPS... squads are balanced as a whole not as a model... which is why grenadiers and conscripts are balanced against each other despite cons having 2 more models and why reinforce cost per squad is more important than reinforce per model... one has greater DPS and the other has greater survivability...
for volksgrenadier vs conscripts volks outright outclass conscripts and beat them very easily at ranges outside of range 10 while sporting FREE PANZERFAUSTS AND INCENDIARY NADES... due to that it is widely considered that VG are SUPERIOR to base conscripts...
now if BASE VG are superior to BASE cons what makes you think that volks mp40 isnt superior to cons PPSH....
what possible synergy is there with conscripts and PPSH that DOES NOT exist in volks and MP40
|
(13th WG) Vladimir Putin
CPU - Easy
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
