But since you are impossible to argue with, on top of claiming false things like Panzerfusilier vet supposedly being way better than Volks', I'm gonna end this discussion here.
All of this edit just to avoid this
"Is like saying that USF becomes OP because it gets the chance to call assault engies and riflemen early game at the same time with some doctrines.
You realize that, yes ?"
Cheap bail out |
It does not hamper starting MP. OKW has the highest starting MP Sturmpioneers included (350+300).
Changed from being similar to other factions in total because too low otherwise. Same treatment given to Brits.
Nothing of that has anything to do with the fact that Okw Starrting mp, is way less than other factions.
Half truths and strawman ?
Wow |
Sturmpioneers for starters. And that OKW starts with much more manpower. Also that there wouldn't be any teching costs / time required for more expensive and better infantry so no delays on capping and staying power (unlike Penals).
If a T0 alternate mainline was made strong enough to stand up to Allied infantry, OKW would just roll over them because they have the Sturmpioneer starter unit. Volksgrenadiers are worse than Allied infantry stock to compensate for that. New Pfussies are designed to stay within that spirit, but offer an interesting choice because they'd counter early light vehicles and offer better scaling later. At the expense of being slightly worse than Volksgrenadiers until they get their G43s.
"Sturmpioneers for starters."
Which has alone its upkeep and bleed, hampers starting mp.
"And that OKW starts with much more manpower. Also that there wouldn't be any teching costs / time required for more expensive and better infantry so no delays on capping and staying power (unlike Penals)."
Not like this has always been a doctrinal infantry non-issue that starting cooldowns on call in could easily solve.
Remember osttruppen flooding the early game and the cooldown ?
Are you trying to find excuses to go against me ?
"If a T0 alternate mainline was made strong enough to stand up to Allied infantry, OKW would just roll over them because they have the Sturmpioneer starter unit."
None of those its free mp wise.
Is like saying that USF becomes OP because it gets the chance to call assault engies and riflemen early game at the same time with some doctrines.
You realize that, yes ?
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For your panzerfusilier change, what CP would they come at? If it's 1 cp or later, they won't be used because OKW players will already have all of their mainline squads by then. If it's 0 cp, then you just made OKWs early game more oppressive - probably the first entry on the list of "things not to do." Basically, if you make them come at anything besides 0 cp, they won't be used. If you make them stronger early than volks, that will make OKW more oppressive. That leaves making them weaker early than volks, but stronger later...which is exactly their design in the mod.
For tactical movement, OKW has valiant assault and that even has an accuracy bonus attached too, though the sprint doesn't last in combat. Also, ostheer has tactical movement. Of course tactical movement might end up being broken on schrecked panzerfusiliers (I personally don't think so), but if they are, that would be a panzerfusilier problem and not a tactical movement problem. I don't think that there is any risk at all of the ability being broken (again, outside of use on panzerfusiliers). I can agree the ability is a little boring and uninspired. That said, I think your suggested ability isn't a good idea. Panzerfusiliers already have stellar moving performance (THIS is panzerfusilers actual ideal combat use case by the way). I think buffing their moving performance through an ability even more would just make them wipier than they already are.
0cp
Maybe i'm missing something, but i can't see how it is any more oppressive.
You are basically pumping out 280mp/28mp 5 men grens with marginally less durability than grens models, with no flame nade.
The idea is reversing grens/osttruppen, or an even better comparison, turn in into a cons vs penals kind of choice.
"That leaves making them weaker early than volks, but stronger later."
Why can't we act thought cost and early bleed ?
"For tactical movement"
Like i said, i don't feel like it's a tactical movement.
The bonuses apply only on the move and account for buffs of only 8-9% on g43 in terms of accuracy. They are very marginal.
The true meaning of that is yellow cover where there is no cover and zero cover on red penalty. |
First, you're only going to use "Push" while you're on the move anyway, so specifying that it's a move only bonus is meaningless. Secondly, with a 20% cooldown bonus, and a free yellow cover bonus (Which you can also just use if you're absolutely terrible and your Pfussilers get caught out somewhere in the open). You seem to be ignoring aspects of your own ability here. You can use this ability, get a large dps increase from stacking accuracy and cooldown (Good lord if you also throw G43's in there), and take little damage on approach because you have perpetual yellow cover (Which also is just poorly designed because it takes away any intelligent positioning aspects of infantry fights)
You just created a completely brainless ability that says "Press this and walk at the enemy for no repercussions to win fights for 30 seconds"
This would be the most broken infantry ability in the game with its combination of length and sheer power that it gives the unit.
No dude, adding all those bonuses, dps is WAAAAYYYY lower than stationary dps, totally unaffected.
Free yellow cover doesn't work in the "open" (where wide open in coh 2 universe is actually red cover) and can't stack with any cover bonus
This whole "large dps increase" part show you have no clue of numbers
10% accuracy bonus over the accuracy on the move means 55% instead of 50% for kar98k and less than 8% increase for g43.
And you are comparing it to 150% burst duration bonus and 50% accuracy bonus on STG....how clueless can you be ?
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Each single model performs worse precisely because it's a 6-man squad.
"Make Panzerfusiliers a 5 men squad similar to Riflemen with similar cost"
=) |
You've broken my brain.
Tactical Advance will massively slow your squad down, give them a large defensive penalty, but they shred anything they get close too. Lasts roughly 10 seconds (Not entirely sure on the length, it might even be less)
Push will slightly slow your squad down, give them a defensive bonus anywhere on the map, and they will shred anything they get close too. Lasts 30 Seconds
The only way you could possibly consider Tactical Advance different is if you pop the ability, then you stand in cover at max distance.
"They will shred anything they get close too".
Yeah, with their whopping on the move only bonus accuracy of 10%
Good lord. Terminator 1000 in coh 2 !!!!!
To help your brain: is basically to make fussies close in and their kar98k to not miss too much.
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Excuse me, but you said "they hardly feel like elite infantry in terms of stock performances". Implying that they should be like elite infantry, when they are not meant to be.
Volksgrenadiers get -10% RA, +30% accuracy, -20% cooldown, another -14% RA and sight and passive heals for veterancy. That's hardly any worse than Panzerfusiliers veterancy, and arguably as good if you really value the passive healing.
If you mean Grens Kar 98K then mention Grens Kar 98K and not "elite rifles" because they are not.
"Excuse me, but you said "they hardly feel like elite infantry in terms of stock performances""
They were meant to be elite infantry but they never were truly, except when veterancy kicked in (which ofc goes against this game design of elite units, no elite is worse than mainlines at start just to become more powerful with veterancy).
That's a failed design that the mod team is ditching by lowering its cp to 0.
But in its current iteration the unit doesn't feel like "a premium mainline" either, which is why a 5 men squad model with higher pricing is way better.
Not going to waste time over semantics.
By the way, Panzerfussies get an additional 20% accura y bonus at vet 4 iirc. |
You want to give Pfussilers a 30 second long Tactical Advance that also gives them a defensive bonus.
That is the most hilarious thing I've ever read in my life.
Tactical advance
Squad moves at half speed, +50% accuracy, 150% longer stg burst lenght, +50% received accuracy.
My proposal
No bonus when stationary, 10% more accuracy on the move (10% of a greatly reduced values), 20% lower cooldown on the move, positive cover is irrelevant, 20-25% slower speed, light cover always applied.
Explain how this is anything like tactical advance ? |
Panzerfusiliers are not elite infantry. They were once, and they were nerfed to alternative mainline infantry. No reason to go back. OKW has Obers for long range elite firepower.
Panzerfusiliers also do not get big buffs with veterancy. They basically get Ostheer standard infantry veterancy (+40% accuracy, -20% cooldown, -23% RA) and some utility (longer ability range, sprint, capping).
Furthermore there are no elite doctrinal Kar 98Ks. There's either Volks, Grens or Obers Kar 98ks. They definitely can't use Obers Kar 98ks.
Read properly, my suggestion is to make them an alternative mainline infantry
"Panzerfusiliers also do not get big buffs with veterancy. They basically get Ostheer standard infantry veterancy"
Which are way bigger than volks + passive sprint and fast cap speed.
If that's not big...
"Grens Kar 98ks"
That's what i meant |
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