Another poll about some changes regarding WFA doctrines

Title, a poll and a thread to discuss about eventual replacements for some abilities and units of the WFA doctrines.

1) Panzerfusiliers

The issue i see with current Panzerfus is that (they hardly feel like elite infantry in terms of stock performances).
They are a 6 men "elite" squad where each single model perform worse than almost any combat unit model at stock performance, but receives big buffs by veterancy.

This despite OKW has already both doctrinal long-mid range "elite" squads and stock elite long range unit.

Proposed changes:

Make Panzerfusiliers a 5 men squad similar to Riflemen with similar cost
Standardize dps curve of their rifle and put it in line with other elite doctrinal infantry kar98k.
Tone down their veterancy.
Buff their RA.
Now they fill the role of "good quality Allies WFA" mainline option at an higher cost.

2) Tactical Movement

Tactical movement may prove problematic with buffed volks, making it a "must push" button that will turn a decent/semibad unit into a powerful cqb unit and there's a risk for mp40 volks blobs.
It may prove to be a great incentive for whatever comes out of the Panzerfusilier rework to be blobbed.

Nontheless, it feels uninspired as ability, since the doctrineis about "Grand Offensive" and not a generic Infantry Focused doctrine.

- Replace tactical movement with something else.

I propose a Stug E, an artillery vehicle born to support infantry assault, thematically fitting and a new unit for okw.

- Give 5 men Panzerfus a 30 muni ability, "Push".

- Unit lose 20-25% speed
- Unit gains 10% more accuracy on the move
- Weapons have 20% lower on the move cooldown
- Light cover bonus contantly applied, doesn't stack with any cover but
- Red cover negative is nullified (count as no cover)

(I hope the last 2 are possible, if not, a RA bonus when out of cover)

Last 25-30 seconds.

3) Off map Smoke

I feel like it doesn't fit thematically this doctrine., and that USF doesn't like ways to provide smoke cover.

-Change it with Ph barrage offmap, much more fitting for "Urban Assault" and still usable to provide cover or support Rangers.

About Tactical Movement I personally think it would be better to replace it with Assault & Hold from Ostheer Inf doctrine. It fits the Offensive theme slightly better and it prevents schreck sprint spam

About Tactical Movement I personally think it would be better to replace it with Assault & Hold from Ostheer Inf doctrine. It fits the Offensive theme slightly better and it prevents schreck sprint spam

It is still an OST ability, and it is asically a Breakthrough with accuracy bonuses.

The idea behind an ability like "push" is to focus on offensive panzerfusiliers infantry assaults, while using an ability that is actually a tradeoff.

In conclusion, the concept behind is reworking panzerfusiliers as mid game "assault" mainline.

1) Panzerfusiliers

The issue i see with current Panzerfus is that (they hardly feel like elite infantry in terms of stock performances).
They are a 6 men "elite" squad where each single model perform worse than almost any combat unit model at stock performance, but receives big buffs by veterancy.

This despite OKW has already both doctrinal long-mid range "elite" squads and stock elite long range unit.

Proposed changes:

Make Panzerfusiliers a 5 men squad similar to Riflemen with similar cost
Standardize dps curve of their rifle and put it in line with other elite doctrinal infantry kar98k.
Tone down their veterancy.
Buff their RA.
Now they fill the role of "good quality Allies WFA" mainline option at an higher cost.

Panzerfusiliers are not elite infantry. They were once, and they were nerfed to alternative mainline infantry. No reason to go back. OKW has Obers for long range elite firepower.

Panzerfusiliers also do not get big buffs with veterancy. They basically get Ostheer standard infantry veterancy (+40% accuracy, -20% cooldown, -23% RA) and some utility (longer ability range, sprint, capping).

Furthermore there are no elite doctrinal Kar 98Ks. There's either Volks, Grens or Obers Kar 98ks. They definitely can't use Obers Kar 98ks.

Panzerfusiliers are not elite infantry. They were once, and they were nerfed to alternative mainline infantry. No reason to go back. OKW has Obers for long range elite firepower.

Panzerfusiliers also do not get big buffs with veterancy. They basically get Ostheer standard infantry veterancy (+40% accuracy, -20% cooldown, -23% RA) and some utility (longer ability range, sprint, capping).

Furthermore there are no elite doctrinal Kar 98Ks. There's either Volks, Grens or Obers Kar 98ks. They definitely can't use Obers Kar 98ks.

Read properly, my suggestion is to make them an alternative mainline infantry

"Panzerfusiliers also do not get big buffs with veterancy. They basically get Ostheer standard infantry veterancy"

Which are way bigger than volks + passive sprint and fast cap speed.
If that's not big...

"Grens Kar 98ks"
That's what i meant

Title, a poll and a thread to discuss about eventual replacements for some abilities and units of the WFA doctrines.

1) Panzerfusiliers

The issue i see with current Panzerfus is that (they hardly feel like elite infantry in terms of stock performances).
They are a 6 men "elite" squad where each single model perform worse than almost any combat unit model at stock performance, but receives big buffs by veterancy.

This despite OKW has already both doctrinal long-mid range "elite" squads and stock elite long range unit.

Each single model performs worse precisely because it's a 6-man squad. Stock Pfusies at long range outgun rifles, volks, and match penals. Sure, the fall-off a bit (a lot actually) at close range because their DPS curve is rather "flat" (very similar to Infantry Section) but they can fix that with a G43s that have SMG-like close range performance, slightly buff mid-range and have no penalty to long range DPS and they take no slots. Oh and they come with grenades, snares, good vision and flares.

Secondly, thay are hardly considered "elite", they are more like "premium mainline", and thats how they are balanced,

Yeah phosphorus barrage would make more sense. US doesnt need any help with smoke, and it would be more useful against buildings and such. Given the theme that makes lots of sense to me

- Give 5 men Panzerfus a 30 muni ability, "Push".

- Unit lose 20-25% speed
- Unit gains 10% more accuracy on the move
- Weapons have 20% lower on the move cooldown
- Light cover bonus contantly applied, doesn't stack with any cover but
- Red cover negative is nullified (count as no cover)

(I hope the last 2 are possible, if not, a RA bonus when out of cover)

Last 25-30 seconds.

You want to give Pfussilers a 30 second long Tactical Advance that also gives them a defensive bonus.

That is the most hilarious thing I've ever read in my life.

Read properly, my suggestion is to make them an alternative mainline infantry

"Panzerfusiliers also do not get big buffs with veterancy. They basically get Ostheer standard infantry veterancy"

Which are way bigger than volks + passive sprint and fast cap speed.
If that's not big...

"Grens Kar 98ks"
That's what i meant

Excuse me, but you said "they hardly feel like elite infantry in terms of stock performances". Implying that they should be like elite infantry, when they are not meant to be.

Volksgrenadiers get -10% RA, +30% accuracy, -20% cooldown, another -14% RA and sight and passive heals for veterancy. That's hardly any worse than Panzerfusiliers veterancy, and arguably as good if you really value the passive healing.

You want to give Pfussilers a 30 second long Tactical Advance that also gives them a defensive bonus.

That is the most hilarious thing I've ever read in my life.

Tactical advance
Squad moves at half speed, +50% accuracy, 150% longer stg burst lenght, +50% received accuracy.

My proposal
No bonus when stationary, 10% more accuracy on the move (10% of a greatly reduced values), 20% lower cooldown on the move, positive cover is irrelevant, 20-25% slower speed, light cover always applied.

Explain how this is anything like tactical advance ?

Excuse me, but you said "they hardly feel like elite infantry in terms of stock performances". Implying that they should be like elite infantry, when they are not meant to be.

Volksgrenadiers get -10% RA, +30% accuracy, -20% cooldown, another -14% RA and sight and passive heals for veterancy. That's hardly any worse than Panzerfusiliers veterancy, and arguably as good if you really value the passive healing.

If you mean Grens Kar 98K then mention Grens Kar 98K and not "elite rifles" because they are not.

"Excuse me, but you said "they hardly feel like elite infantry in terms of stock performances""

They were meant to be elite infantry but they never were truly, except when veterancy kicked in (which ofc goes against this game design of elite units, no elite is worse than mainlines at start just to become more powerful with veterancy).

That's a failed design that the mod team is ditching by lowering its cp to 0.

But in its current iteration the unit doesn't feel like "a premium mainline" either, which is why a 5 men squad model with higher pricing is way better.

Not going to waste time over semantics.

By the way, Panzerfussies get an additional 20% accura y bonus at vet 4 iirc.

Tactical advance
Squad moves at half speed, +50% accuracy, +50% received accuracy.

My proposal
No bonus when stationary, 10% more accuracy on the move, 20% lower cooldown on the move, positive cover is irrelevant, 20-25% slower speed, light cover always applied.

Explain how this is anything like tactical advance ?

You've broken my brain.

Tactical Advance will massively slow your squad down, give them a large defensive penalty, but they shred anything they get close too. Lasts roughly 10 seconds (Not entirely sure on the length, it might even be less)

Push will slightly slow your squad down, give them a defensive bonus anywhere on the map, and they will shred anything they get close too. Lasts 30 Seconds

The only way you could possibly consider Tactical Advance different is if you pop the ability, then you stand in cover at max distance.

You've broken my brain.

Tactical Advance will massively slow your squad down, give them a large defensive penalty, but they shred anything they get close too. Lasts roughly 10 seconds (Not entirely sure on the length, it might even be less)

Push will slightly slow your squad down, give them a defensive bonus anywhere on the map, and they will shred anything they get close too. Lasts 30 Seconds

The only way you could possibly consider Tactical Advance different is if you pop the ability, then you stand in cover at max distance.

"They will shred anything they get close too".

Yeah, with their whopping on the move only bonus accuracy of 10%

Good lord. Terminator 1000 in coh 2 !!!!!

To help your brain: is basically to make fussies close in and their kar98k to not miss too much.

Each single model performs worse precisely because it's a 6-man squad.

"Make Panzerfusiliers a 5 men squad similar to Riflemen with similar cost"

=)

"They will shred anything they get close too".

Yeah, with their whopping on the move only bonus accuracy of 10%

Good lord. Terminator 1000 in coh 2 !!!!!

To help your brain: is basically to make fussies close in and their kar98k to not miss too much.

First, you're only going to use "Push" while you're on the move anyway, so specifying that it's a move only bonus is meaningless. Secondly, with a 20% cooldown bonus, and a free yellow cover bonus (Which you can also just use if you're absolutely terrible and your Pfussilers get caught out somewhere in the open). You seem to be ignoring aspects of your own ability here. You can use this ability, get a large dps increase from stacking accuracy and cooldown (Good lord if you also throw G43's in there), and take little damage on approach because you have perpetual yellow cover (Which also is just poorly designed because it takes away any intelligent positioning aspects of infantry fights)

You just created a completely brainless ability that says "Press this and walk at the enemy for no repercussions to win fights for 30 seconds"

This would be the most broken infantry ability in the game with its combination of length and sheer power that it gives the unit.

By the way, Panzerfussies get an additional 20% accura y bonus at vet 4 iirc.

No they don't.

First, you're only going to use "Push" while you're on the move anyway, so specifying that it's a move only bonus is meaningless. Secondly, with a 20% cooldown bonus, and a free yellow cover bonus (Which you can also just use if you're absolutely terrible and your Pfussilers get caught out somewhere in the open). You seem to be ignoring aspects of your own ability here. You can use this ability, get a large dps increase from stacking accuracy and cooldown (Good lord if you also throw G43's in there), and take little damage on approach because you have perpetual yellow cover (Which also is just poorly designed because it takes away any intelligent positioning aspects of infantry fights)

You just created a completely brainless ability that says "Press this and walk at the enemy for no repercussions to win fights for 30 seconds"

This would be the most broken infantry ability in the game with its combination of length and sheer power that it gives the unit.

No dude, adding all those bonuses, dps is WAAAAYYYY lower than stationary dps, totally unaffected.

Free yellow cover doesn't work in the "open" (where wide open in coh 2 universe is actually red cover) and can't stack with any cover bonus

This whole "large dps increase" part show you have no clue of numbers

10% accuracy bonus over the accuracy on the move means 55% instead of 50% for kar98k and less than 8% increase for g43.

And you are comparing it to 150% burst duration bonus and 50% accuracy bonus on STG....how clueless can you be ?

Why would someone pay 280mp for a unit that's able to hold their own against allied 280mp squads when they can just build a 250mp squad that can do the same?

I think you're making distinctions where they're not important and ignoring them where they are. They ARE NOT a 6 man elite squad in the current version of the game (they're a failed mainline replacement); they WERE a mainline replacement with vet bonuses that propelled them into being some psuedo 6 man elite squad - that was before these vet bonuses were toned down because they were broken. Also, no point in pointing out that OKW already has elite doctrinal and non doctrinal long range infantry, because thats not what panzerfusiliers are (thats not what they were, thats not what they are, and thats not what they are intended to be in the mod).

For your panzerfusilier change, what CP would they come at? If it's 1 cp or later, they won't be used because OKW players will already have all of their mainline squads by then. If it's 0 cp, then you just made OKWs early game more oppressive - probably the first entry on the list of "things not to do." Basically, if you make them come at anything besides 0 cp, they won't be used. If you make them stronger (more efficient) early than volks, that will make OKW more oppressive. That leaves making them weaker (less efficient) early than volks, but stronger later...which is exactly their design in the mod.

For tactical movement, OKW has valiant assault and that even has an accuracy bonus attached too, though the sprint doesn't last in combat. Also, ostheer has tactical movement. Of course tactical movement might end up being broken on schrecked panzerfusiliers (I personally don't think so), but if they are, that would be a panzerfusilier problem and not a tactical movement problem. I don't think that there is any risk at all of the ability being broken (again, outside of use on panzerfusiliers). I can agree the ability is a little boring and uninspired. That said, I think your suggested ability isn't a good idea. Panzerfusiliers already have stellar moving performance (THIS is panzerfusilers actual ideal combat use case by the way). I think buffing their moving performance through an ability even more would just make them wipier than they already are.

For your panzerfusilier change, what CP would they come at? If it's 1 cp or later, they won't be used because OKW players will already have all of their mainline squads by then. If it's 0 cp, then you just made OKWs early game more oppressive - probably the first entry on the list of "things not to do." Basically, if you make them come at anything besides 0 cp, they won't be used. If you make them stronger early than volks, that will make OKW more oppressive. That leaves making them weaker early than volks, but stronger later...which is exactly their design in the mod.

For tactical movement, OKW has valiant assault and that even has an accuracy bonus attached too, though the sprint doesn't last in combat. Also, ostheer has tactical movement. Of course tactical movement might end up being broken on schrecked panzerfusiliers (I personally don't think so), but if they are, that would be a panzerfusilier problem and not a tactical movement problem. I don't think that there is any risk at all of the ability being broken (again, outside of use on panzerfusiliers). I can agree the ability is a little boring and uninspired. That said, I think your suggested ability isn't a good idea. Panzerfusiliers already have stellar moving performance (THIS is panzerfusilers actual ideal combat use case by the way). I think buffing their moving performance through an ability even more would just make them wipier than they already are.

0cp
Maybe i'm missing something, but i can't see how it is any more oppressive.
You are basically pumping out 280mp/28mp 5 men grens with marginally less durability than grens models, with no flame nade.

The idea is reversing grens/osttruppen, or an even better comparison, turn in into a cons vs penals kind of choice.

"That leaves making them weaker early than volks, but stronger later."

Why can't we act thought cost and early bleed ?

"For tactical movement"

Like i said, i don't feel like it's a tactical movement.

The bonuses apply only on the move and account for buffs of only 8-9% on g43 in terms of accuracy. They are very marginal.

The true meaning of that is yellow cover where there is no cover and zero cover on red penalty.