Dosnt justify why the aoe should not be change to that as the ml20s.
while that would make sense for the sake of consistency, i don't see a problem with the higher damage output of the lefh's counter barrage mode. without it, the ability would be more or less useless, as it is unfortunately for most other units that have it.
also, i'd have to agree with vipper that bringing retreating units as an argument doesn't really make sense here, unless of course you're placing your indirect fire pieces right next to your base / FRP. |
If MMX's sheet is correct, the ML20 is just straight up worse against infantry in basically every respect. The only part where it is better is the AoE from range 6 to 8 - by doing a whopping 10 damage instead of the 8 damage of the LeFH. In all other regards it's worse. I am not sure if it's a typo or not, but the sheet says ML20 mid range damage is 0,15 compared to 0,35 of the LeFH.
Don't forget also that the ML20 also fires more slowly by about half a second per shot (0,5 sec in my book), meaning the barrage times are roughly the same, but the LeFH gets 1-2 shells more.
So if the sheet is correct, the ML20 could excel against static structures with the higher base damage at vet 1, but that's about it.
hah, just checked the editor again and you're right about the near and mid aoe dmg being wrong. should be 0.9, 0.25, 0.05 instead, meaning both field guns have nearly identical aoe profiles (except the massive 2 dmg difference at far to max range you've already hinted at).
so all in all, the ml20 is pretty much an inferior version of the lefh in almost every possible scenario, despite the higher base damage. |
not even. USF has great choices in all compartments.
they even has all tools to win with cheese most team games (say hello to calliope spam combined with 3x bazooka squads which carry 3 handheld ATs and bring a panther down in no time. while the caliope wipe all targets ...while the enemy has no reaction time vs this shit..and have fun to try dive into triple bazooka squads
psst... i think he's being sarcastic
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L2P with the katty bro, The vet ability might be garbage sure but katty is anything but.
not sure why asking for a fix or overhaul of an obviously useless ability is a l2p issue. noone even contested that the katy is decent even without it, but that doesn't mean its vet ability should stay the worthless muni sink it is right now |
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the katy creeping barrage really is rather weird and underwhelming. on top of the huge scatter mentioned above it quite often bugs out half way into the last salvo and fires only 2 or 3 rockets instead of 4.
i've tried to fiddle around with the ability a while ago to kind of fix it (by modifying and using the creeping rockets weapon profile as suggested by descolata), and while i could normalize the scatter it is still rather buggy in terms of not firing all 16 rockets occasionally.
part of the reason is that the implementation of the katy cb is different from all other creeping barrages in the game to make the 4-rocket salvos work.
anyhow... although it may not be the most pressing issue atm the katy cb definitely needs a fix. i'll probably post the solution / mod i've come up with later that, even though it's not perfect, might serve as a starting point to make the ability more viable.
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There is: satchels only deal .667x damage against enemy infantry. Though I believe the doctrinal Pioneer satchel is still set to deal less damage to axis, rather than allied, infantry. This was an oversight from copying the ability.
ah, didn't know about those, thanks a lot for the info. sometimes these modifiers are hidden in pretty obscure locations within the game files (my personal favourite here being the moving scatter penalty), making it hard to keep track of or even locate them in the first place.
in this specific case, i assume the .667 multiplier would be enough to make the scatchel 'survivable' at the edge of the blast radius? |
I don't know about special target tables.
But this observation could also simply be explained by small arms fire. The model did not get any damage by the gammon bomb/satchel but by the squad throwing it. I don't think I could tell it apart in the game.
Demolition charges and goliaths are similar, and we recently had a discussion about the AVRE that exhibits the same characteristic of having lethal AoE and then suddenly 0.
I don't like the design of those profiles. There's a huge explosion animation that tears apart the models, but then the guy that stood half a meter further away seems to be completely fine with his life choices. It's so counter intuitive to play and also to just look at.
fair point about the observation bias. and i also fully agree the aoe curve, in particular for such extreme cases, isn't very well implemented in-game. a linear damage drop-off to zero between far and max aoe would be much more logical. |
You can make up your mind about that. Heavy gammon and satchels are basically the same, Tommy and USF nades are the same. Maybe I forgot a subtype but that are the most important ones.
Obviously price and fuse times differ. For satchels/gammons they are so long that you should not count of hitting infantry with those.
Personally I'd say the bundle is the overall best one. Long fuse but the large AoE makes up for it. And if your opponent is a little bit too late with dodging it, it does quite a lot of damage. It's exceptional for retreat wipes as well.
Rifle grenade is nice as well, although it is next to useless if you have a well microing opponent. It just often comes unexpected and is easier to pull off in chaotic situations.
very interesting! from the graph it seems the satchel/heavy gammon should be kind of binary: it either instagibs anything within its aoe (unless in heavy cover) or does no damage at all. still i could swear i've seen units limp away from a satchel with a sliver of health left. can't check myself atm but is it possible that there is some other sort of damage penalty (e.g. from target tables or such) that would bring the far aoe dmg below the 80 dmg threshold? |
[...]
Similarly I think the scout car being able to toss a medkit on the ground would help it find a role when it's front line time has expired. No AOE. Just a kit if that's possible.
not an expert on this but i don't think a no-aoe medcrate is possible without the potential exploit to heal multiple squads at once if timed right. hence why the sturmpio version got changed to aoe heal a while back. but maybe passive heal for squads inside the transport à la 251 ht might be an option |
Of course I'm aware of the differences. Yet I feel such comparisons would be so cool. Then you would probably have to compare against different infantry squads and cover. IMO impossible to actually do because of how time consuming and painstaking it would be. I feel tightrope is the only one to actually try that. Still probably not enough data. I guess at least a dozen of people should do that testing different settings (range, cover, attack ground shots, different infantry squads, and many more variables - pintle, no pintle to name just a few).
you mean sth like this? |
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