Now that I think about it I could see why some player just use Sturm Pioneer as their mainline, there is nothing they don't do
Healing unit
Assaulting unit
Repair unit
AT unit
Field crafting unit
Obstacle building unit
Obstacle clearing unit
OKW had the best units to start off with. And I might even consider just spamming them as core unit 
You could try spamming them as a core unit, but the manpower bleed will kill you against a competent opponent.
They're good units, but they're not worth 300 MP in a pure combat role. |
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GMC is the best put together doctrine in the game.
Everything is solid and it's never been far from meta, but it also doesn't crowd out other commanders by giving you everything. |
Balance is about Faction vs Faction yes.
Diversity has to do with in faction stuff yes.
Then this thread is about the strategic diversity problem. If you want to discuss tank destroyer balance in a broader context, I'd make a separate thread for it. |
I know, I really liked your vehicle point-blank idea. I still think that by changing only the heaviest tanks HP, the main reason of vehicle balance problem isn't touched, which is the Medium-Panther-TD dynamic. Medium tanks are so bad against Panthers, that TDs have to be too good to compensate for what medium tanks lack. Instead of simply supporting tanks in AT fights, TDs take the bulk of the fight. Changing this dynamic and making TDs less frustrating to fight against while maintaining the game balance would require changes that are probably too severe at this stage of the game life.
Oh, you could definitely do more.
But suggestions that make it into patches need to be tame enough for the balance team to risk.
I think the IS-2 beating the Panther and the Tiger outclassing the Panther are the keystones of the heavy tank meta, and it'll fall down if you pull them out. |
I wouldn't call it a heavy counter currently. Beating a pershing isn't really warranting the "heavy counter" title. It's the lightest of all heavies in the game. As you said the IS2 is currently superior, and I agree. The panther struggles vs many other heavies currently though. Churchill variants, KV-2, ISU-152. And it's not that it can't pen them most of the time, it's that their HP pools are just so massive that the panther cannot deal with them without being in range of super TDs or AT walls. Its current design is more of a brawler tank that loses to things that outrange or outlast it.
Personally I'd say the best heavy counter would be one that could 1v1 a churchill and win within a timely manner. The way the churchill is currently though, nothing can kill it in a timely manner
By heavies, I mean the three heavy generalists that have caused all the controversy in the last patch. The problem I'm trying to solve is the dominance of commanders that include those tanks.
The KV-2 and the Churchill Crocodile haven't had the same effect on the meta. |
Go a bit further. Increase the close pen of all mediums to 180 and increase the reload of everything that isn't medium tank by 1s. This way the heavy tanks don't suffer too low TTK from TDs and other heavies and mediums can actually pen when they should. I just watched a game in which M4A3 AP round sherman bounced point blank 3 shots vs panther with destroyed engine when it was 1 shot from death. Sherman died and Panther survived. No shit people spam TDs in everything that is 2v2 and up.
I made a thread suggesting doing just that (giving all vehicles a penetration spike at point blank range), but it's a far-reaching change unlikely to get tested in a patch.
Knocking 160 HP off two heavy tanks is a much more minor edit that's very easy to implement. |
All the falls ever really needed was maybe reinforcement cost reduction to 32/model, but due to other doctrines being more meta, Falls got buffed to the level at which they had to lose the faust to maintain some sort of weakness. They are not obers, but they are not that far off.
Falls had to lose the faust anyway.
They're a cloaking ambush unit with high close range DPS and a frag grenade. That means their only hard counter is vehicles.
Giving them a faust meant their only hard counter was medium vehicles, which was insane on a CP2 unit. |
Not really. It is balance issue because Super heavies simply become op after they got buffed.
T4/Tiger diversity is an internal Ostheer problem firstly and balance issue secondly.
If you define 'balance' as faction against faction (which you seem to be doing) then it isn't a balance issue. Every faction but UKF got one of those heavy tanks.
It's a balance issue within factions. The problem isn't the game being unfair, it's it being dull due to a single strategy dominating. |
The ostheer T4 (Panther)/Tiger choice is separate issue of diversity and not balance.
The heavy tank meta is a strategic diversity problem. |
You are trying to tackle too many issue at once.
I think it's very simple.
The Panther is a cost-effective counter to heavy tanks.
It's specifically the IS-2 it can't handle, and that's because the IS-2 can take an extra hit.
Bring the IS-2 and Tiger in line with the Pershing and you fix that without making them unviable units.
Unless anyone wants to claim the Pershing is bad?
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