Good players are usually the minority.
Not only the unit but the commander is viable even without using the TA. However you definitely need to be good and be able to preserve your troops till you use it. A TA alone is a dead unit if your opponent has AT. A TA supported with 2 or 3 Pz4/ostwind/stug and infantry is a beast.
In 2vs2+, a TA supported with panthers/KT is also a beast.
There's a big difference between how it performs and how it was designed. I have mentioned before: The unit is completely fine as a unit! However, the way it was designed, was a flaw of the old "veteran call-ins" system (Which had been justified and removed!). The penalty things, similar to OKW once HAD, I say again, once HAD! The OKW one got removed, but not this one. The Soviet one (The Soviet "Windustry" as it was) got removed as well, but not this one! The veteran call-in like OKW Elite Pz.IV, veteran Rifleman got removed, but again, not this one! Not the Ace! It needs to be fixed: Replace with a normal KT (Remove the last 2 vets if you want), maybe come out with a commander on top, no MG upgrade and has slightly better LoS. Just, remove the flaw, basically! |
A proper explanation about the broken-ness of the penalty plz.
Check Osinyagov's post before (The #7 one cause I don't know how to quote post from different page). It's not about balance problem, but more of a game design problem. It was a flaw that got fixed (The removal of veteran call-in units, the removal of OKW's resouce penalties) but not this guy. You can say that it has its own beauty, but OKW resource penalties were the faction's own beauty as well, the veteran call-ins (Veteran Rifleman, instant Vet-3 grens, OKW double veteran Pz.IV) had their beauties as well, but they got removed. So why does this one stand? In addition, remember that OKW can call-in a similar-in-strength tank (KT) without having any penalty, but the Ace got it, and the Ace can't even vet up while the King still can.
Also, the way you used the Ace effectively now is against the game's core mechanic: Unit preservation (Sacrifice it for kills, not even worry about its survival since as long as it's alive, you'll still have to carry penalties). Like I said, the Ace is more of a game design problem!
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Here's an outrageous suggestion:
Just replace it with regular Tiger, and then make the skin something you can buy for all heavies in store.
Well, you're not wrong... it's very much an outrageous suggestion.
Just replace it with the normal Tiger will basically remove the doctrine's flavour. Like, what's "Elite" about it anymore? That's why replace it with the KT is more suitable, consider the Ace's stats are already around the level of the KT and it'll still keep the "Elite" flavour flows (The only Wehrmacht Doctrine got access to the KT) |
TBH, the best way forward would have been to redesign this Commander by throwing out the Tiger, insert a PBG (renewable), reduce the CPs for the call-in,and redesign the interim stages with the insertion of a Bergetiger. Fuel would become very necessary, not irrelevant.
Not a bad idea, but that would means an entire new unit added (Bergertiger) which I don't think it can be executed any time soon. Meanwhile, I think the KT is still a more suitable choice: A strong unit but with high CP requirement, high resource requirement (720MP and 260 fuels), it won't be the no-brainer choice since you can get more units by the time the King become available. Basically, do this to remove the old flaw is the main concern, in my opinion, consider it's the last remnant of the old, broken "veteran call-ins"
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The ace is fine. It is usefull, but you have to consider when and even if you want to buy it instead of something else - exactly as it should be.
Yes, it is completely fine in terms of unit performance. It's basically a slightly less armoured KT but with better LOS and RoF. However, its veteran status and the resource penalties are the two things that make the way of using this unit against the core mechanic of the game: Unit preservation and vetting them up. This unit is literally come out being veteran (Meanwhile, other veteran units had been removed long ago due to being imbalance compared to other units that come out non-veteran, which basically the majority) and due to the resource penalties, the effective way of using it would be throwing it away for as many kills as possible (Which basically against the idea of preserving units). Again, as a unit, the Ace seems fine, not UP or OP, but its design, the way it's used is a flaw, so it needs to be fix.
In addition, if you replace it with the King, remove its resource penalties but remain at 17 CPs, it won't be that much of a no-brainer choice since the normal Tiger from other doctrines with still came out 4 CPs earlier and during this 4 CPs period, you can still get more units out which combine up would still be better than 1 King.
im rank 29 with Imagelessbean in 2vs2 with axis. Bean is using the tiger ace almost 40% of the games and we never lost. it a very powerfull units, in good hands.
However, you guys are just the minority here. No offense, as much as I respect Bean as a person who helps me a lot, but when it's only work for the minority, not the majority then that doesn't mean it's viable. Also, mind you that it's not like the majority is too dumb to make it viable, it's just that the burden of calling it in makes it seems not appealing, compared to other commanders with normal Tiger, which not only a better choice but also, fit the way the game mechanic works: Preserving the Tiger and vetting it up.
I'm talking more about the game design of this unit, not its performance. And since this unit is already has a strength around the level of the KT (Less armoured but better LOS and RoF), might as well replace it with the King to remove the flaw of the old veteran things that the Ace still carry today.
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I don't have the commander, but i kinda understand the idea...
I think this could be a viable option, if the battle goes sour in the late game. Say, you lose your fuelpoints and can't recap, enemy tankrush seems imminent, oh no what do!?
Tiger Ace Hero Übermensch to the rescue!
It feels like it's Mr. Adolf H. mindset unit. It's all or nothing at all! You either win or lose with this unit, you can and will shock and awe with him! If he falls, all hope is lost. Or this hero will bring you victory with him.
Or hopefully at least regain the fuel, and continue the fight. His sacrifice will not be for nothing.
Just BECAUSE this unit doesn't follow all other units (irreplaceable call in, doesn't need fuel) it is interesting. When this wildcard is in play it's not impossible to get a powerful armor, even without access to fuel.
Interesting unit... It's ok that it has resource penalty. It makes it a very dangerous and high risk card to play
Well, that's what it was when it was released: A 3000 HP Tiger with invincible power to save the day! However, that kind of units has been removed (Veteran Rifleman, veteran trainning, vet Pz.IV, etc.) due to it being imbalance. Basically, the entire concept was a flaw and it got fixed, except for this guy! The Ace got neft to where it is now (Which is fine and needed) but the penalties are the remnants of that old flaw and well, you can guess it, needs to get fix. Just try the commander out if you can and you can see that the Ace is literally unusable in 2v2+ (Calling it in will basically means you just signed your own surrender pact) |
So call it in, kill stuff with it and sacrifice it or win right away.
Then might as well call it "Shock Tiger", not Tiger Ace. I know that's how it supposed to be used now, but doesn't it feel strange? Like, it's an Ace, and the effective way to use it is to sacrifice it after the initial shock. The resource penalties along with its status are the Ace's own curse. As sad as it is, it needs to get replace, and one of the options that seems most appealing would be the King Tiger, I guess? (To fit its "Elite" theme) |
It is issue in game design, not in balance.
I know, the Tiger Ace is basically the last unit that comes out with veteran status while other similar units had already got removed. To be honest, it should get replace with something else as well (To finish the old business, I guess), maybe the King Tiger? (Consider it's Elite Troops Doctrine, may as well give them something differ from other Tiger doctrines). I think this would make the commander more appealing to all gamemodes.
However, hypothetically, if the King replace the Ace, I think with the high CP of 17, being more expensive than Tiger (720MP and 260 fuels) and temporary fuel lock (I don't think the MP should be reduce anymore, consider the moment you got it, you'll basically already struggle with MP), this commander won't become the only viable option. Again, just an idea, but I agreed with most people's opinions: The Tiger Ace is a flaw design now, so changes must be made? (Maybe not now since the Scope, but consider it for near future) |
Hmm... Pretty good, actually. Even though the enemies in this match was very, very passive... I can still see the potential of this commander. |
The Tiger Ace is fine in my opinion (Compared to the vanilla Tiger, the better sight and faster RoF from the start are surely worth calling in). However, the penalty when calling it in is a little bit over-the-top, actually. I mean, the fuel lock is understandable, but the MP decrease is a little bit too much. Like, 75%! This makes the commander not that viable in 2v2+ compare to ones with normal Tiger or even Elefant since you don't have to carry such penalties.
Even though, the entire commander is very good in 1v1 so... I'm not sure what can be done to make this one more viable in larger gamemodes... Maybe reduce the MP penalty downs to around 25% - 40%? Any ideas? (Consider the fact that it's no where near the KT but still got quite a burden when call it in)
EDIT: According to most people here, the most suitable idea now is to remove the Ace due to its veteran status and resource penalties being the flaws of the old, broken "veteran call-ins", which had been fixed a long time ago. Therefore, now the question became what should be done to fill up the Ace' slot? (In my opinion, the KT is the most suitable candidate. Reasons mentioned below) |