Tiger Ace's resource penalties

Seriously, at least read the discussion you're replying to.

Used your pic as a example man,wasn't adressing you,chill...

The ace is fine. It is usefull, but you have to consider when and even if you want to buy it instead of something else - exactly as it should be.

Yes, it is completely fine in terms of unit performance‎. It's basically a slightly less armoured KT but with better LOS and RoF. However, its veteran status and the resource penalties are the two things that make the way of using this unit against the core mechanic of the game: Unit preservation and vetting them up. This unit is literally come out being veteran (Meanwhile, other veteran units had been removed long ago due to being imbalance compared to other units that come out non-veteran, which basically the majority) and due to the resource penalties, the effective way of using it would be throwing it away for as many kills as possible (Which basically against the idea of preserving units). Again, as a unit, the Ace seems fine, not UP or OP, but its design, the way it's used is a flaw, so it needs to be fix.‎

In addition, if you replace it with the King, remove its resource penalties but remain at 17 CPs, it won't be that much of a no-brainer choice since the normal Tiger from other doctrines with still came out 4 CPs earlier and during this 4 CPs period, you can still get more units out which combine up would still be better than 1 King.‎

im rank 29 with Imagelessbean in 2vs2 with axis. Bean is using the tiger ace almost 40% of the games and we never lost. it a very powerfull units, in good hands.

However, you guys are just the minority here. No offense, as much as I respect Bean as a person who helps me a lot, but when it's only work for the minority, not the majority then that doesn't mean it's viable. Also, mind you that it's not like the majority is too dumb to make it viable, it's just that the burden of calling it in makes it seems not appealing, compared to other commanders with normal Tiger, which not only a better choice but also, fit the way the game mechanic works: Preserving the Tiger and vetting it up. 
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I'm talking more about the game design of this unit, not its performance. And since this unit is already has a strength around the level of the KT (Less armoured but better LOS and RoF), might as well replace it with the King to remove the flaw of the old veteran things that the Ace still carry today.‎

TBH, the best way forward would have been to redesign this Commander by throwing out the Tiger, insert a PBG (renewable), reduce the CPs for the call-in,and redesign the interim stages with the insertion of a Bergetiger. Fuel would become very necessary, not irrelevant.

Not a bad idea, but that would means an entire new unit added (Bergertiger) which I don't think it can be executed any time soon. Meanwhile, I think the KT is still a more suitable choice: A strong unit but with high CP requirement, high resource requirement (720MP and 260 fuels), it won't be the no-brainer choice since you can get more units by the time the King become available. Basically, do this to remove the old flaw is the main concern, in my opinion, consider it's the last remnant of the old, broken "veteran call-ins"

Here's an outrageous suggestion:

Just replace it with regular Tiger, and then make the skin something you can buy for all heavies in store.

Can't imagine it takes that much work to just copy paste the same pattern to other heavy models like Brummbar or Elefant.

Here's an outrageous suggestion:

Just replace it with regular Tiger, and then make the skin something you can buy for all heavies in store.

Can't imagine it takes that much work to just copy paste the same pattern to other heavy models like Brummbar or Elefant.

Oh man, people would be more pissed over that than any of the other doctrine changes.

Scraping the Tiger Ace from Elite Troops would probably seen like removing Paratroopers from the Airborne Company - it's that intrinsic to its identity. Personally, I could stand it (unlike the latter, but why the hell would that ever happen), but I think I'd be in the minority.

Here's an outrageous suggestion:

Just replace it with regular Tiger, and then make the skin something you can buy for all heavies in store.

Well, you're not wrong... it's very much an outrageous suggestion. 

Just replace it with the normal Tiger will basically remove the doctrine's flavour. Like, what's "Elite" about it anymore? That's why replace it with the KT is more suitable, consider the Ace's stats are already around the level of the KT and it'll still keep the "Elite" flavour flows (The only Wehrmacht Doctrine got access to the KT)‎

I don't understand what's so broken about the income tax of the Tiger Ace?

That's the beauty of it. It's high stakes gamble, and that doesn't make it OP.

If it didn't have the income penalty it would be possible to bring in the ace, then just fight on for a couple of minutes, get them panthers and other stuff, and steamroll your opponent. Now, it's the tiger and that's it.

In 2vs2 your buddy can still get normal income right? Also, it's not compulsory to bring in the Tiger Ace. It's an "ace in your sleeve", bring it if you REALLY need it, or just as a final nail to their coffin.

A proper explanation about the broken-ness of the penalty plz.

However, you guys are just the minority here. No offense, as much as I respect Bean as a person who helps me a lot, but when it's only work for the minority, not the majority then that doesn't mean it's viable. Also, mind you that it's not like the majority is too dumb to make it viable, it's just that the burden of calling it in makes it seems not appealing, compared to other commanders with normal Tiger, which not only a better choice but also, fit the way the game mechanic works: Preserving the Tiger and vetting it up. 
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I'm talking more about the game design of this unit, not its performance. And since this unit is already has a strength around the level of the KT (Less armoured but better LOS and RoF), might as well replace it with the King to remove the flaw of the old veteran things that the Ace still carry today.‎

Good players are usually the minority.
Not only the unit but the commander is viable even without using the TA. However you definitely need to be good and be able to preserve your troops till you use it. A TA alone is a dead unit if your opponent has AT. A TA supported with 2 or 3 Pz4/ostwind/stug and infantry is a beast.
In 2vs2+, a TA supported with panthers/KT is also a beast.

The commander is great even without the T.A. because the Stun grenades make Grenadiers viable.

A proper explanation about the broken-ness of the penalty plz.

Check Osinyagov's post before (The #7 one cause I don't know how to quote post from different page). It's not about balance problem, but more of a game design problem. It was a flaw that got fixed (The removal of veteran call-in units, the removal of OKW's resouce penalties) but not this guy. You can say that it has its own beauty, but OKW resource penalties were the faction's own beauty as well, the veteran call-ins (Veteran Rifleman, instant Vet-3 grens, OKW double veteran Pz.IV) had their beauties as well, but they got removed. So why does this one stand? In addition, remember that OKW can call-in a similar-in-strength tank (KT) without having any penalty, but the Ace got it, and the Ace can't even vet up while the King still can. 

Also, the way you used the Ace effectively now is against the game's core mechanic: Unit preservation (Sacrifice it for kills, not even worry about its survival since as long as it's alive, you'll still have to carry penalties). Like I said, the Ace is more of a game design problem! ‎

Good players are usually the minority.
Not only the unit but the commander is viable even without using the TA. However you definitely need to be good and be able to preserve your troops till you use it. A TA alone is a dead unit if your opponent has AT. A TA supported with 2 or 3 Pz4/ostwind/stug and infantry is a beast.
In 2vs2+, a TA supported with panthers/KT is also a beast.

There's a big difference between how it performs and how it was designed. I have mentioned before: The unit is completely fine as a unit! However, the way it was designed, was a flaw of the old "veteran call-ins" system (Which had been justified and removed!). The penalty things, similar to OKW once HAD, I say again, once HAD! The OKW one got removed, but not this one. The Soviet one (The Soviet "Windustry" as it was) got removed as well, but not this one! The veteran call-in like OKW Elite Pz.IV, veteran Rifleman got removed, but again, not this one! Not the Ace! It needs to be fixed: Replace with a normal KT (Remove the last 2 vets if you want), maybe come out with a commander on top, no MG upgrade and has slightly better LoS. Just, remove the flaw, basically!‎

The commander is great even without the T.A. because the Stun grenades make Grenadiers viable.

Just focus on the Ace's game design problem, please. I had already stated: The commander is very good in 1v1 since you can finish the match way before the Ace even available (Or out of pop-cap). However, in 2v2+ where heavy tanks are needed in late game, the normal Tiger would be way more appealing since this one got a burden from the old, flawed "veteran call-ins" system. The Ace is against the game's core mechanic, so fixs are needed. Period.‎

Check Osinyagov's post before (The #7 one cause I don't know how to quote post from different page). It's not about balance problem, but more of a game design problem. It was a flaw that got fixed (The removal of veteran call-in units, the removal of OKW's resouce penalties) but not this guy. You can say that it has its own beauty, but OKW resource penalties were the faction's own beauty as well, the veteran call-ins (Veteran Rifleman, instant Vet-3 grens, OKW double veteran Pz.IV) had their beauties as well, but they got removed. So why does this one stand? In addition, remember that OKW can call-in a similar-in-strength tank (KT) without having any penalty, but the Ace got it, and the Ace can't even vet up while the King still can. 

Also, the way you used the Ace effectively now is against the game's core mechanic: Unit preservation (Sacrifice it for kills, not even worry about its survival since as long as it's alive, you'll still have to carry penalties). Like I said, the Ace is more of a game design problem! ‎

I still dare to disagree.

Every unit and decision has a flipside. AT gun is bad against infantry, MGs are useless against tanks, Heavy tanks cost a lot, but can be effective, etc.

This oddity stands out of the crowd.

It's fuel free, so it doesn't need what KT needs: fuel.
It's "vet" from the start, so you don't NEED to preserve it for it to be effective (i don't want to start the vettable/non-vettable TA fight again, you guys know what i mean)
To me, it seems, the only flipside is that it kills income.

And this decision, to call it in, or not to call it, is what makes it an "Ace in a sleeve". Calling it can turn the tide of the battle. For better or worse.


Yes: Rest of the "elite veteran call in units" and the resource penalty mechanics have been removed, but this one still exists. And it intrigues me. If the battle is going tits up, this can be a last resort heroic counterattack unit to save the day. It's expendable, since keeping it for longer just brings the penalty, but this is why it's such a beautiful unit.

Don't tell me, that you have NEVER been in a position, where your inevitable loss could have been turned into a glorious victory, IF you had quick access to a single, cheap, very powerful tank. This, my kamerad, is where The tiger ACE fits in.

There's a big difference between how it performs and how it was designed. I have mentioned before: The unit is completely fine as a unit! However, the way it was designed, was a flaw of the old "veteran call-ins" system (Which had been justified and removed!). The penalty things, similar to OKW once HAD, I say again, once HAD! The OKW one got removed, but not this one. The Soviet one (The Soviet "Windustry" as it was) got removed as well, but not this one! The veteran call-in like OKW Elite Pz.IV, veteran Rifleman got removed, but again, not this one! Not the Ace! It needs to be fixed: Replace with a normal KT (Remove the last 2 vets if you want), maybe come out with a commander on top, no MG upgrade and has slightly better LoS. Just, remove the flaw, basically!‎

Why should it be replaced with a KT? if you have to pay it with fuel, you can't have your medium tanks supporting you. Unlike any other examples you mentioned, TA is unique, you lose it its gone. It comes in a way you can have whatever units costing the amount of fuel you want, if you keep enough popcap you can call it.
Yes it goes against unit preservation rule, but today it doesn't break the balance.

Don't tell me, that you have NEVER been in a position, where your inevitable loss could have been turned into a glorious victory, IF you had quick access to a single, cheap, very powerful tank. This, my kamerad, is where The tiger ACE fits in.

Oh, I have been there. Hope you don't get me wrong, but I love the faction and the Ace! Most of my victory in 1v1 are when I used Elite Troops. However, I'm kinda feel bad when calling in the Ace. Like, in some cases, it just seems so broken... Just put yourself in the enemy side, he think he already beat you, take away both fuels, knowing that you can't build any armours, but oh, well you look at that, Tiger Ace! And then it comes your side: You finally get a heavy tank, hoping that would help you deal with Allies' outnumbering troops but oh wait, that god damn penalties! But it's an Ace, but then the resources... Like, I don't know. Of course it won't be a thing in 1v1 since it's just you and you alone, but in 2v2+, there will be a moment your now-limited army have to fight 2+ armies at once, which doesn't sound as balance or "heroic" at all.‎

Why should it be replaced with a KT? if you have to pay it with fuel, you can't have your medium tanks supporting you.

That sounds like a trade-off to me! A heavy tank or a group of medium tanks? I, and many others, choose the KT cause it would still keep the "Elite" theme, remove the penalties and veteran things (Also, consider the Ace has similar power to the King so yeah)‎

Oh, I have been there. Hope you don't get me wrong, but I love the faction and the Ace! Most of my victory in 1v1 are when I used Elite Troops. However, I'm kinda feel bad when calling in the Ace. Like, in some cases, it just seems so broken... Just put yourself in the enemy side, he think he already beat you, take away both fuels, knowing that you can't build any armours, but oh, well you look at that, Tiger Ace! And then it comes your side: You finally get a heavy tank, hoping that would help you deal with Allies' outnumbering troops but oh wait, that god damn penalties! But it's an Ace, but then the resources... Like, I don't know. Of course it won't be a thing in 1v1 since it's just you and you alone, but in 2v2+, there will be a moment your now-limited army have to fight 2+ armies at once, which doesn't sound as balance or "heroic" at all.‎

Yeah, i like that indeciveness!
Enemy can see your loadout before game, so the SHOULD anticipate the Heroic Ace at some point. Also other abilities should give a hint. So bringing it in isn't unfair for them, it's an option.
That's what i like about the idea behind the ace. It should be a tough decision whether to use it or not.

If you replace it with KT the commander doesn't much differ from others. It just has another superheavy steelmonster as an ultimate ability, which is awarded if you can secure a shitload of fuel.

That sounds like a trade-off to me! A heavy tank or a group of medium tanks? I, and many others, choose the KT cause it would still keep the "Elite" theme, remove the penalties and veteran things (Also, consider the Ace has similar power to the King so yeah)‎

Because the TA in exchange of your resources income isn't a tradeoff?

However, you guys are just the minority here. No offense, as much as I respect Bean as a person who helps me a lot, but when it's only work for the minority, not the majority then that doesn't mean it's viable. Also, mind you that it's not like the majority is too dumb to make it viable, it's just that the burden of calling it in makes it seems not appealing, compared to other commanders with normal Tiger, which not only a better choice but also, fit the way the game mechanic works: Preserving the Tiger and vetting it up. 
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I'm talking more about the game design of this unit, not its performance. And since this unit is already has a strength around the level of the KT (Less armoured but better LOS and RoF), might as well replace it with the King to remove the flaw of the old veteran things that the Ace still carry today.‎

I undersand you...but i can't accept your arrugement. it like me with snipers, i just suck using thems, and maybe if snipers get buffed, i be better at using thems, but imagine then that unit in good hands.. would be to much powerfull.

Not all units, are made to be used with your playstyle.. bean is very cautius guy when using his units. im more a very agresive guy. so with my sniper, i go to far, and i get destroyed. yes ace tiger come late, but man... it is a damn good tank. just don't rush with him and support him! and take care of enemie mines

I undersand you...but i can't accept your arrugement. it like me with snipers, i just suck using thems, and maybe if snipers get buffed, i be better at using thems, but imagine then that unit in good hands.. would be to much powerfull.

Not all units, are made to be used with your playstyle.. bean is very cautius guy when using his units. im more a very agresive guy. so with my sniper, i go to far, and i get destroyed. yes ace tiger come late, but man... it is a damn good tank. just don't rush with him and support him! and take care of enemie mines

I never said that the Ace is not a good tank. I even compared it with the KT! (I once got an Ace to 70 kills in a 1v1 like hell, this unit is very powerful)‎. No, again, the Ace's performance is completely fine! No questions about it. However, i'm talking about the penalty things, which no other units suffer from anymore. That penalty thing is just odd now, consider the KT, the unit you can call-in without any penalty but the Ace, share similar power, has to carry such burdens. And then, it's veteran status as well...

To be honest, I have been repeated myself over and over again... but i'm gonna do it one last time: The resource penalties. That's the one i'm targeting, NOT the Ace. The Ace is completely fine in terms of performance (Similar to KT, remember?) but the penalties!... The resource penalties, man!‎