The frag shells are okay but nothing to build your army or strategy around. So nope, they bring nothing really interesting to the table.
Your example is pretty biased. If you use a fully coordinated push as an example (which is fair), then at least compare it to a fully coordinated defense. I also never talked about zoning.
The point is: One Panther is enough to block the IS2 from advancing, all support units being roughly equal, even if you manage to not get scouted with your attack. Do the same thing as Axis with a KT or Tiger, and your units are on the run, because Allies do not have a beefy Panther-like TD. Which is also fully fine balance-wise, it just makes the IS-2 uninteresting.
im confused are we walking a panther fighting is2 alone or panther fighting with support. If i have panther with support then it better well damn stop the is2 lol. even if its 1v1, with panthers low rate of fire (is2 can also bounce shots from panther) combined with is2's health and armour, a single panther cannot stop an is2, but damage it slowly over time and you guys seem to forget an is2 can fight back lol.
I highlighted part of your text, if i have coordinated defence that cant even stop an is2, then clearly is2 would have to be OP to be able to do that.
The same applies if i use a tiger or KT, if tiger walks into a TD with AT support the tiger will be forced to fall back, The KT can definitely stay in the fight for longer but due to its slow speed, you can kite with your TD's.
People here just want the is2 to be a yolo tank, but its currently in the same position as all heavies, it needs to be used with support if your fighting a coordinated defence which is a good thing. |
this is the ideal solution, to turn it into a king tiger for the allies
but this would mean that the allies get an assault tank, god forbid the balance team lets allies have actually threatening heavy armor
They have Ptsd of some ancient time while current team mode is king tiger into elefant into overwatch or jagdtiger and nothing fucking else but axis heavy armor, its literally only heavy armor and lefh spam
its sure fucking fun, but god forbid the allies beat our armor that we can fucking a-move at this point
Because Axis struggles more then allies vs heavy armour, because axis DONT HAVE access to 60 range high pen TD's. Yes, currently team games modes with Kt's, elephants etc is annoying and everybody knows teams 3v3,4v4s games is a balance mess and will ALWAYS be a mess and yet you want to make changes based on whats happening in team games. IS2 is fine as it is, your complaining it being push back by a panther with support lol, im sorry are you saying it should be able to walk through the entire axis roster? and last time i checked isnt panther supposed to be a somewhat of a counter to is2?
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USF is a good faction with strong units but are lacking a crucial unit, which is a non doc rocket arty and that hampers the faction significantly. Hence, why they have to rely on cheese like Scott or pre nerf-pack howie in the past. Relic need to allow the balance team more freedom to allow calliope to be non-doc |
+1
It's always easier to cry and blame balance instead of going back to the drawing board and adapt. In 2v2 and 3v3 there is nothing to blame but yourself for playing the wrong strat
I've gone against this strat multiple times already and as OKW your best counter is to play as aggressive as possible with smoke. Either leig smoke or plane smoke.
As wehr you can literally go for the old Elefant meta with double pak40 support. (Panther spam with JU87 loiter on maps where ele sucks)
Another argument I hear all the time is that it's "unfun to go against".
Guess what, going against the most sweaty-ass axis builds is the same, or someone thinks it's fun to go against G43 fusi blob with force retreat Offizier, p4 and JT?
Or a-move gren blob with spotting scope brummbar, double pak40 and elefant.
Guess the difference with these last two axis cancer builds is that you're considered a god, but as USF you're a cancer player 
Every faction has powerful strats, but they still have all sorts of counters and take time and effort to build towards the super late game like you described (remind me when elephant or JT hits the field again). The scott strat is a lot easier to pull off and occurs alot earlier which allows you to snowball, i have yet to see one reliable counter other then play "aggressive" by running into pathfinders sitting in cover reinforcing from ambulance gl with that.
Imo they should make the scott 2 shot again but allow it to keep its smoke becuase right now its so hard to dive and kill. or increase the scotts price |
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In team games, i dont think the issue stems from scott or paths, what makes this strat very hard to stop is from the minute 0 because of aggressive ambulance. early game at vet 0 with no upgrades axis squads will not drop models quickly enough. Any faction being able to have a mobile reinforce/healing that early is stupid, especially when team mates are reinforcing from it too. But this is less of a issue on 1v1s and 2v2s. |
*Sighs deeply*
The bofors has nothing to do with the flak hq and it has nothing to do with my opinion that the flak hq should have a popcost Like I already said, I think almost everything should have a popcost, such as bunkers as well. Unless you pay per each use, which is another option someone suggested
Calm the fuck down and stop making demands. Saying it needs multiple significant buffs just because I suggested adding a popcost of 5 is absurd
ppl compare the bofors to flak because they are both similar in terms of combat performance. The reason units like bofors and why bunkers should have pop cup is because you can build more then 1. imagine your someone who puts the flak in there base for protection, your paying popcap for a unit that sits in base the whole game. If you want to add pop cap to flak, encouraging people to use pop cap effectively, then remove the risk that if its destroyed you don't lose your tech |
I don't really disagree. Just don't see the point of it, but at the end of the day all I'm asking for is it take up a tiny bit of pop space
you mean like other units? like the bofors? didnt you not want to compare it with the bofors yet, want to apply things from other units to flak. If you want to add pop cap to it, then you better damn well give it brace and the ability to target enemy units as well as removing the toggle between AA and ground and finally buffing its AA to pre nerf levels |
As I wrote in my opening post, I am kind of divided if I personally consider the JP4 already OP or "just" very good. That's why I wanted to start this discussion.
From how I read your post, you're arguing that Allied TDs are already good against everything except for the JP4. If they performed well against the JP4, they'd lack a real weakness, which would be bad for the game.
I fully agree.
And that's exactly the issue that I have with the JP4. It counters all Allied non-doc vehicles with the exception of the Comet and maybe, maybe the Churchill (against which it still does "okay"). Including - if not to say, especially - all Allied TDs. One single unit in one single faction is all that the JP4 is bad against. USF and Soviets are kind of out of options. Also, the JP4 does not win against TDs because of its armor (it has <4,5% frontal bounce chance), but because of its ROF and at vet2 also health.
While Allied TDs are at least rather fragile (SU85 and Jackson) or clunky and slow firing (Firefly), giving even mediums the chance to just bum rush a damaged TD and win. That's not the case with the JP4. If you don't find the rear armor, good luck with ~55% pen chance with your medium tank all while having lower ROF than the JP4. If you're Axis and dive an Allied TD, getting to the rear is beneficial, but you can still manage if not. As Allies against the JP4, it is actually required, because otherwise you cannot win.
In my eyes, the only things holding the JP4 back are slight mobility issues until it vets up and most of all its timing. In the current meta and with OKW often losing the infantry advantage around the 15 min mark, your first vehicle should be a medium, not a TD. For some reasons (I assume reliability and less micro but not sure) people often get the Panther afterwards.
As Sanders said, builds with heavies are hard to beat. I personally play them with grand offensive. Pfusies keep you safe from flanking mediums, and you have the option for the Tiger. I found it sometimes difficult to make it to the Tiger because of some holes in the AI line up that are caused by the JP4, but they can be manageable and once you got the Tiger, you're usually good to go for the end game.
ok i get it but what is your solution? lets say we will nerf its armour to make it paper thin like su85. Its performance vs TD's wont change as they have high pen anyway, it will still be OP with KT's/tigers and makes an underused unit even less desirable but at least it will be more venerable to med tanks.
From my experience, the problem does not stem from the unit itself but when its used in combination with other tanks. jp4 + KT or su85 with ISU152's both are almost impossible to overcome.
1 solution could be armour and VET nerf (give accuracy or more damage in VET instead or nothing at all) as well as a price decrease which could make it more appealing to go for (maybe have it med truck like before), but im curious about what you think should be done. |
I did not mean actually hitting a target, but rather just having the first shot. According to my calcs (assuming SU85 hits about 2/3 of its scatter shots which is fairly in line from what I tested against a medium tank and JP4 hits 50% of its scatter shots due to larger scatter angle), JP4 wins fairly easily in direct combat. The SU85 can equal out if the JP4 has to rotate for about 2 seconds (SU85 attacks at 40° angle) before being able to shoot. Granted, I the reduced precision for the first shot is not factored in, but still.
Once the JP4 hits vet2 and gets extra health, SU85 can't really win anymore, even at vet3. Regarding pure DPS, the SU85 is the best of the Allied destroyers. Which means that without any support (or at the very least lucky long range Tulips from the Firefly), Jackson and Firefly will likely lose too.
If you regularly have to push into a JP4, which many maps force you to, the best you can realistically hope for as an Allied player is to trade somewhat equally with the JP4 and force a retreat. In 80% of the other scenarios, you'll draw the short end of the stick.
To make it short:
It depends on what you understand as "shut down". Complete domination with high chance of regularly losing your TD? No, that's not the case. But severly hampering its performance? For sure.
A P4 also does not utterly dominate a T34. But whenever those two meet, the T34 should not pick the fight unless there are other units to support it. Obviously this comparison is a bit off, since those mediums have a cost difference which in case of the JP4 either not the case or slightly even in favor of the JP4.
i agree with your assessment. So whats wrong? should JP4 be losing to allied TD's? isn't jp4 beating and to effectively fighting back and counter allied TD's exactly what this unit should be capable of? correct me if wrong, jp4 exists to counter medium armoured tanks and below, hence why it does not have the pen of other 60 range TD's but does have better armour and health which allows it to counter them better. Allied TD's already effectively counter every single axis non doc vehicle expect for the jp4. as far as i can see, this unit is performing as intended. |
The SU85 will usually still lose even despite having the first shot (which is by far also not a guarantee).
Firefly can fight back with Tulips, those are very hard to aim at 50-60 range and apart from Tulips it will heavily lose.
Jackson? Not too much. It can just avoid the JP4. Best it could do is to spot an angle, take a pot shot and back off before the JP4 has rotated, but that is unreliable at best and takes a huge micro effort. Real flanking is not a realistic option. The main Jackson's main strength is its 60 range, you're not diving this vehicle. If you want to flank and dive, a Sherman is the better option.
In most scenarios, Allied TDs will trade way worse than the JP4, especially of both of them gather veterancy over time.
same of the jp4, it could very well miss on long range , however i am not disagreeing with your post, i was just responding to the people saying jp4 SHUTS DOWN allied TD play which is just not true. |
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