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1.69 x 3 + 4 x 2 = 13,1 x 2 bar
1,69 x4 + 4 = 10,78 x 1 bar
1.8 x 6 = 10,8 penal
at mid and close range the bar gains a straight advantage at vet 0
penal get more offensive vet tho (rifle get more def one)
so they will deal more damage than rifle with bars until close range but have worse RA |
If you want to look at another comparable unit, Rifles do less damage than Penal models at every range above 9(where cover works) but cost 1 mp more for 3% better RA. Even with BAR upgrades and at vet 3 Rifles do less dps than a penal squad without an upgrade until they are at ~5 range, despite the 120 muni investment of bars. This is Similar to their comparison with grens who also do more damage per man until they are at range 10 where rifles to the exact same damage as 1 gren, who has .9 RA to rifles .97 at vet 0.
Rifles seem to be decent at every range except super cqb compared to other units like grens and penals, which doesn't help to trade cost effectively. Man for man or cost for cost they trade worse as a result of the dps curve and upgrades that are not as cost effective. It seems like rifles are a bigger issue than volks. They can win the fights but seem less efficient than other similar units, who can be more effective at normal cover to cover engagement ranges.
Edit: Holy fk: rifles go from doing 39 DPS at range 10 to 64 damage at range 0 vet 3 full upgrades. Their power spike is insane when face hugging, thats kinda useless most of the time though, Shocks don't even do any extra damage closer than 10 range
that's false, rifle with bars will out dps penal at all ranges bot vet 0 and 3 |
"reliably"... rifles lose to volks at long range... and yes REs have tank traps... so why arent sandbags present on sturmpioneers isntead of volks?
no they are the same stop spreading misinformation i already posted the dps chart
sturm don't have sand bag cause they are over burned with roles, i tried to address this with a rework hopefully the mod team does something similar |
1. this doesnt make sense... its going to die to AT guns just as quickly as the flametruck
2. it deals alot less damage than the flametruck does... granted it does suppression
Irrelevant... all rocket arty is fired at minimum range lest they have almost no effect
and no the pwerfer wipes much much better than the katy does... at any range
because you wanted a katy-pwerfer comparison... im sorry but the Pwerfer is better
the T-34-76 is made of swiss cheese having less HP than the average medium and dies to a sneeze from 2 AT guns... a P4 or a sherman would easily be able to escape death that would fall upon a T-34-76
and lastly this is coming from the faction with THE worst core infantry and machinegun ingame...
just to note however...
the soviets may have the squishiest and probably the least potent core vehicle AI....
but the soviet doctrinal vehicle AI are some of the scariest ones ingame....
ISU-152
IS-2
T-34-85
KV-8
even the KV-1
hence the soviets... even in their vehicles continue to suffer from the "doctrines for viability syndrome".... this has to end... people dont want to be stuck playing guards motor combined arms or armored assault to make up for the lack of good vehicle AI...
TLDR; make core soviet viable...
armor matter vs inf especially when it's anti inf
and here it is, no they are the same, it's saturation vs alpha (im sorry my ass)
oh yea the less hp of the t 34 76..... do u actually play the game the su 76 has the same hp as any medium, it has just 10 less armor than Sherman (cause it cost 20 less fuel)
btw 2 at-gun will kill any medium
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The problem is that the range at which the DPS curves diverge is too close. So if you encounter an enemy Volksgrenadier in some cover, you cannot fight on long range since Volks will be more cost efficient. So you need to close in which is very risky since loosing a model while closing in will likely mean the loss of the complete fight.
The early Gren/Con-balance had a similar thing - Cons had to close in. But Cons are dirt cheap to reinforce, and they could take a model loss and still trade efficiently on close range. Also they cost the same, so no one got a real map presence advantage. These were the most interesting matchups in the game.
But Riflemen are not cheap to reinforce, Volks have an extremly potent Sturmpioneer at their side to help in early game and until USF getsthe officer out, they lack behind in map presence.
I really don't get your second point. It makes no sense. You can spam sandbags while capping a point from early to late game. So your infantry is always close to green cover. USF has literally no non-doc options to create green cover. Of course open field encounters happen, still most fights and especially the important ones are fought from cover. Taking away sandbags from Volks would go a long way to bring them back to normal cost efficiency.
1 cons did not have the same problem, they could not win at long range that's it 2 RE tanks trap give green cover |
emphasis on the it doesnt deal as much damage as a flametruck... learn to read
and the soviet AAHT is very squshy... like the SDKFZ 251 it dies to 2 hits from AT guns...
ahh yes the katy... a unit that fires 4 rounds per volley and does 4 volleys with no suppression vs a unit that fires 10 at a time and suppresses everything in the area... sure it takes 0.5 seconds more for the rockets to land but the fact that it lands its rounds in much quicker succession means that it tends to deal alot more damage...
all u have to do is overwhelm the micro of your opponent by attacking at a wide front then fire the pwerfer at whatever target you please... 9/10 times its going to deal a wipe... the katy on the other hand is more of an area denial tool and a weapon team destroyer... even then most weapon teams can usually pack up and run by the second volley of the katy... a weapon team on the other hand can never and will never escape the panzerwerfer...
now im not saying the katy is bad... but the plentiful "panzerwerfer sux" or is "meh" arguments ive seen really doesnt apply for anything bigger than a 1v1... and even in 1v1s its sorta even with the katyusha... in 4v4s and big arse teamgames it can be quite punishing especially noting the infantry saturation and the presence of the OKW IRHT...
its really more of a mobile machinegun... crutch for the maxim if you will... and machineguns arent there to deal damage but to apply suppression... the panzerwerfer on the other hand can do wipes regularly... but consider the AAHT as an antivehicle infantry if you will... it changes nothing... the soviets still have a chronic lack of any durable or long ranged vehicle based AI... something all other factions have in abundance
OKW = P4, stuka, KT (very cost inefficient but has its uses in teamgames)
OST = brummbar, Ostwind, P4, pwerfer
USF = Sherman, scott
UKF = churchill, centaur
sov = katy... ???
and note this is on the faction with the worst core infantry and machineguns ingame...
1 it has more armor 2 it deals ton of damage, so no it's anti inf just cause it supresses them it does not make it not anti inf
a the pw wefer the unit that only has 160 range and has lower aoe and is an hit or miss , while the katy can fire from 200 range and can saturate and area leaving no chance to get away with 1 or 2 models , either u instant retreat or they are dead
pwefer is not bad but why rant about it ? i didn't say anything about it
Saying kt is long range anti inf and the p4 and not listing the t 34 76 is pure bias, why do count basic medium as anti inf but not the t 34 76 ?
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Somehow the balance team forgot to adjust volk pricing when they gave OKW an MG far superior to the once vaunted maxim ????
wait people actually use mg 34 ? last tourney i saw maybe 1 or 2
btw u can't just a move the mg 34 like the old maxim, saying the mg 34 is better than maxim spam pre patch is an absurdity and show a little bias |
Also, Stug Life, you wrote a 3 paragraph post with only two commas and no periods. PLEASE use punctuation because a lot of your posts are simply undecipherable as they are. And when youre trying to drag the whole thread widely off topic per usual, it makes it hard to follow you. Idk maybe thats your point lol.
i didn't bring gren to the conversation, u can actually check who it was
btw can u point the post ? |
read the term vehicle AI...
And the clown car is for earlygame bullying and further proves my argument of soviet vehicle AI being squishy meanwhile the AAHT is for antiblob purposes... it doesnt deal as much damage as a flametruck or a pwerfer... and its still squishy
dude did u smoke ? aa truck is more durable than flame truck... and what does the pwefer compare to aa truck.... it compares to the kat as u already listed....
saying the aa truck is not anti inf is like saying mg are not anti inf, and pwefer is not anti inf as it suppresses so it's anti blob |
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then how about instead of TW we give it a timed increase in range like the USF at-gun and some accuracy ?
something like, sight forward:the veteran crew is able to shoot with more accuracy and with better range for a limited time , + 10 range + 30% accuracy for 15-20 seconds |
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