Since I'm not motivated anymore atm to give an answer to all the small aspects you commented I'll focus on your conclusion since you gave one (although I disagree in all of them but the last and would have quite a few remarks).
About your conclusion:
No, I'm not of the opinion that Soviet needs a doctrinal 0 CP Assault troop, but neither USF, UKF or Ostheer really need one. Because of that all of them are doctrinal, for different openings with different commanders and versatile playstyle.
Yes, Imo the PPsH Cons upgrade is rather underwhelming at its timing at 2 CPs in comparison to the timing of other assault options at soviets themselves or other factions.
So either rework its timing, bundle it with another conscript upgrade or completely exchange for another commander ability. Replace it in Soviet Shock army for sure (since Schock army should heep Schock Troops).
The timing is in fine.
The ability is already bundled with another conscript ability which is "hit the dirt".
Once more if in argument breaks down to other faction have CP 0 assault your suggestion should be replace the upgrade with CP 0 assault infatry, it has already been done with IS.
Vet 3 PPsh conscripts are more cost efficient than Assault IS and Assault Grenadiers. |
It's not about arriving later, it's about not arriving earlier. Because Ostheer can put way more pressure on the early game with its cheap and effective light vehicles. If the Puma comes too early, then it will shut down an Allied response (an LV of their own) too effectively.
The problem with MobiDef was never that any of its abilities were too strong individually, but that it as a whole could easily snowball with a rush of survivable light vehicles (PT), a fast and direct counter to the Allied response (Puma) and following it up with a fast medium tank (CP4) to finish it off.
And that is why instead of nerfing the C Panzer and Puma to oblivion the C panzer should had been removed from the commander. |
It wil take a long time for me too...
The relevance is: You are getting an assault unit in both cases as a result. One time as a call-in, another time buildable with upgrade. If you can't see a real relevance in the outcome here, I don't know what to say.
With the "tiny" difference that the 0 CP assault call-ins don't have to pay munition for their SMGs.
Another tinny difference is that those assault infatry are more expensive. In the end of they if in your opinion Soviet need a CP 0 assault infatry suggest that instead of asking a weapon upgrade to become CP 0.
The damage drop off is surely a good thing, but that results in anybody using PPsH Cons at midrange to fight other infantry units beeing a fool with the exception of the few cases where they fight another CC unit while it closes in.
The fact that they have mid DPS mean that they do damage to closing the distances.
It also means that they lose less close DPS when they drop models.
Bolt action and SMG is bad combination that should not be available but it has its perks.
I have no problem with PPsH and 7th man upgrade locking out each other, but the existence of the nondoc 7th man upgrade does make the PPsH upgrade even worse, because I do think 7man cons are the better choice for the late game.
Nope. PPsh is as good as it was before the 7th man upgrade. PPsh conscripts do not fight 7 men conscripts. This is a diversity issue and not balance. Buffing PPsh might solve the diversity issues but will cause balance issues or power creep.
Then move CP0 assaukt troop call-ins to 1 or 2 CPs too.
That is why I told you upgrade and call in infatry are not relevant.
They are worlds apart from other CC troops, I don't think their lower manpower cost justifies such a difference (and keep in mind they have to pay munition on top).
Compared to what? And one is not meant to use PPsh vs other CC troops but vs long troops.
Still it is the same outcome, the only differnce is the way to get there = after initial purchase method you get a CC unit in both cases
Not really. In order to have access to those doctrinal unit one has to committee to a doctrine in the first 10 secs.
Finally soemthing I can agree about. It makes no sense to have them next to each other in one commander.
glad to see that
In conclusion, if in your opinion Soviet need an CP 0 assault squad suggest that instead of asking to move the PPsh to CP 0. That would make both unit easier to balance. |
USF, Ostheer and UKF all have 0 CP doctrinal Assault units which come with potent close combat weapons and with abilities like smoke or sprint. All of them have further upgrades to make them even more potent later on. For example Thompsons for UKF Assault Tommies.
As I said this is going to take a long time...
There is no real relevance to CP 0 smg infatry and conscript.
One is a weapon upgrade the other a call-in unit.
PPsH upgrade is doctrinal too, since it cost munition you
a) can't just upgrade all cons right away
b) even at 0 CP you can't do it right at the start
c) it hampers your ability to use Oorah, molotov, At-grenade, lay mines, equip Penals with PTRS early on
Yes one has to manage his resources and that goes for all factions.
In addition the upgrade makes your Cons practically useless at midrange since the 3 PPsH have such a harsh damage drop off, so Cons get close quarter by upgrading.
Most SMG have harsh damage drop off and that is according to weapon profiles which is a great idea.
PPsh conscripts retain more mid DPS that most other SMG troops because they still have 3 mosin.
Last but not least it takes away the weapon slot, so you can't get to seven men.
And that make perfect sense since 7 men ppsh would be broken.
That are a lot of disadvantages.
Yes they are but moving the upgrade to CP 0 solves none of them
If anything you could remove AT-grenade once upgraded. Compared to the more potent assault units which does not have a muniton cost and more damage output at close quarters I see no problem.
PPsh conscript are inline with other smgs troops for cost.
Unless you want to make them CP depended too. Hitting the battlefield at 2 CPs means you can have Shock troops at the same time at multiple commanders.
Again one is weapon upgrade the other a call in unit.
In fact at Soviet shock army you have both abilities in one commander...
That is a commander problem and not really relevant to the PPsh upgrade. One of the two could be replaced with something else.
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The IL-2 Sturmovik abilities need tweaking. The single strafe run from Advanced Warfare seems to be completely underpowered and useless, needs a substantial buff to damage and/or suppression.
Strafe see to be a bit late and it could become closer to Ostheer strafe
The loitering Sturmovik is, if I recall correctly, right now at a dmg of 3, it got nerfed in 2018 from 5 to 3. I frequently play the Shock Motor Commander (his IL2 bombing got switched with IL2 sturmovik) and from what I observe, the ability rarely gets more than 1-2 models, even if the enemy does not even bother to remove his infantry blobs from the loitering area. The damage seems to be very inconsistent too. Once, I could observe an immediate 4-models-kill, but in like 95% of the time it does almost nothing. It costs a bunch of ammunition after all, so it should be similar in usefullness compared to other factions bombing/off-map plane attack abilities.
Loiter was actually buffed not nerfed and it is strong. It not advisable to leave soft target in the area where the place operate. |
This.
If sandbags were removed from mainline infantry the balance would go completely out of control and require several patches to get right again. Which is just totally unrealistic at this point of COH2's life span.
You can't just remove sandbags from certain factions relying on them. Imagine playing UKF vs Ostheer without sandbags it would be incredibly hard/next to impossible to compete. Same goes for Conscripts without sandbags or even Volks. All of these factions are balanced around having sandbags available for them.
OKW Sturms are already overtasked as it is if they had to build sandbags as well it would completely ruin the whole faction's early game and would be totally unfair compared to factions like Soviets or Ostheer that can get cheap T0 engineer units.
It would also be yet another step into making all factions play the same which just makes the game boring.
Not having sandbag in mainline infatry does not mean they will not cover. It mean they will have to utilize the maps cover instead of getting the perfect cover in perfect place.
Part of the reason why btirs are so hard to balance is that they have ideal conditions in almost all engagement with green or garrison cover and full health from heal.
It actually things like these that allow the to perform above their price.
As for OKW it rather "funny" that the "aggressive" faction gets sandbag in their mainline infatry and "defensive" faction does not. |
My wishlist for an upcoming patch:
....
7. Have a look at CP requirements. Just one example: I don't get while PPSH for conscripts comes at 2 CPs while you get multiple doctrinal assault units at 0 CPs at other factions. As soviet you can have SVT for conscripts for 1 CP, PPSH for Penals at 1 CP and the perfect elite close combat unit at 2 CPs. Why do PPSH for conscripts even have a CP requirement at all, its not that they are free?
...
Some abilities should have their CP checked but I have to disagree with the example.
You are taking ability like the crate which is OP (and badly designed) and use it as benchmark for another ability that is fine. This lead to pure power creep.
PPsh has actually been buffed relevantly recently (was CP3 and PPsh was weaker) and was quite good when it was buffed.
Making PPsh CP 0 would be make it broken (and then people would ask to move SVT, G43, VSL... also in CP 0).
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https://clips.twitch.tv/MoldyIronicDurianEleGiggle-CmY87g5SeW0C4e5m
For the love of science...
Do either:
1. +50% or double sandbag build time on mainline inf
Or
2. Remove sandbags from mainline inf entirely
...in both cases keep engineers build time normal
Cheers
I agree. I have suggest removing sandbags from mainline infantry for a very long time. |
Does that mean you agree with me about the other seven aspects?
With some not with all but it would take too long to explain. |
Until you get them to Vet2 where they get target size 0.71 you are definitely the one who gets drained. Other elite units get even better target size with Vet. I would still question that.
Again compare them to paras. Target size 1 vs 0.95 and at vet 2 0.71 vs 0.95.
Unless in your opinion paras bleed too much also.
(edited typo)
In addition you have always to purchase a M5 with them... resulting in very high manpower costs if you want more than one.
The combination is dirty if you consider that you get a unit close to SMG US Paras and vehicle for no MU cost and relatively low manpower.
It is true that is not very easy to get multiple squads but the unit is simply not bad. |