Please go back an reread what people have written. No one suggested that all vehicles must have deflection damage. Take the suggestion for what makes sense, not for a super extreme case that has not been fully excluded by someone. Also, please don't state suggestive things about what I have written or intended, if that has not been the case.
This is the original post I have responded to:
They should make it like COH1 that bouncing shot should at least having some damage. Miss and bouncing shot is so frustrating.
when I read that, I understand that user is suggesting that each shot from any vehicle should always do damage to any target. I am might have misunderstood and maybe he can clarify.
For me that is a bad suggestion.
As is, deflection damage is generally deleted from CoH2. The all or nothing coin flip has caused lighter units to disappear in the late game since they can barely contribute to the foght anymore. They become pop cost inefficient compared to higher tier units. The existance of heavy armor then forces all factions to have access to high penetration units, otherwise heavies become a game ender. Those high pen units (TDs and ATGs) in turn shit on medium armor, which is why from 2v2 upwards you'll always see a Panther and Comet spam. Due to similar reasons, other units such as the StuG, JP4 and SU76 disappear from the late game: Because they might be unreliable when they need to perform against heavier armor.
Have a look at the current KV2: Its penetration values are actually laughably bad for such an expensive unit. But the deflection damage allows it to at least supplement and support against heavy armor, being a decent threat to medium armor while dominating none of it. Even a OST P4 can bounce a KV2 shell. The chance of the KV2 triple shotting a P4 is about 35%, so it is there, but more often than not you'll need 4 shots, making the KV2 a deterrent, but not dominating any armor.
The option would be to delete deflection damage, which would in turn force higher penetration to a level that mediums are surely or very reliably penetrated. This decreases the value of lighter units and we loop back to what I wrote above
If some one suggests something specific about which unit should have deflection damage and how much that deflection damage should be I give my point of view. The only thing I have pointed out so far is that making every shot from every vehicle do damage would be a bad change.
This idea that mises or bounces are frustrating but scoring 4 damage hits in row from T-34/76 on PzIV (or any other rare occurrence roll) is not frustrating simply does not make sense to me.
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He clearly speaks about bouncing shots (i.e deflection shots) and then he states that misses and bounces are frustrating. Where it came from that all shots fired should deal damage?
Not to mention that "luchs damaging IS2" wont happen, since not all the guns are capable to deal deflection damage and its based on unit penetration and targer armor. It didnt work like PTRS in CoH2, which just deals deflection damage.
I suggest you ask him what he means.
(You have posted something that seems like quoted of something I have posted when it is not pls fix it.)
Thanks for fixing your post.
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Now that I've had some time to think, I actually do have more to say about this.
First off, I never said that KV-1 needed a buff...
Pls check who I quoted and replied to because it was not you. |
So Panther gets 62,5 range because it has to face 60 range TDs? KV-1 has to face 50 range Panthers and 50 range StuGs without getting a range of 50 which makes its hulldown obsolete. And whats the reason for PZIV or Ostwind getting 50 range? They won't retaliate vs TDs but face no other unit where they need to have 50 range.
Even with 50 range KV-1 would still be outranged by Ostheer AT-Gun, PAK43, JPIV, Jagtdtiger, Elephant, hulled down STuG or hulled down Panther. So balancewise there would be no problem. There are enough nondoctrinal and doctrinal countermeassures and in addition hull down is not available right from the start fo a Vet0 KV-1 like the Ostheer ability.
The only real balance problem with hulldown is the Elephant in multiplayer at laney maps. 87,5 range which can even shoot 7pdr Emplacements without retaliation is just a little bit silly. The cone of the fixed shooting arc gets quite wide at the end by the way. But I do think that is no problem for you.
Hulldown should give -20% received damage and a fixed +10 range for all tanks: Ostheer and KV-1. That way it would be a lot more transparent and wouldn't grant 17,5 range to Elephant...
In your opinion does KV-1 need a buff? If it does not then it should not get more range when in hull down.
Now again if in your opinion Ostheer hulldown is too powerful I suggest you start a separate thread asking to nerf it.
Claiming that KV-1 needs extra range for " quality of live and transparency" simply does not make sense. |
I respect this as your opinion, but there is not much reasoning behind it. It's not about penetration as you claimed. Promoting spamming is only the case if the deflection damage is too high, but that is a balance issue and not a general design issue. PTRS also do deflection damage, but no one spams them because there are serious trade offs to that.
Overall most of this is inherent to the general way penetration functions in this game. I hope CoH3 sees a rework for the system. There should be a benefit to overpenetration by increasing damage or triggering criticals, similar to the wargame series and also similar to what you suggested if I understood you correctly.
Context:
They should make it like COH1 that bouncing shot should at least having some damage. Miss and bouncing shot is so frustrating.
Now if in you agree with Porygon that all shots fired by vehicle should hit and damage other vehicles pls explain why.
Imo having Luch do damage to IS-2 with every shot fired would be a very bad change. |
The first part is not true. Many heavy tanks have high penetration, yet are generalist tanks and petform well vs infantry.
I'd personally like more deflection damage in the game.
I see the same issue as GachiGasm: The current system promotes high pen units because of reliability and holds down lower tier units because of that. People tend to favor reliability. No one wants to lose a game because you get bad RNG once in the game which breaks your army after having played 30 min. At the same time heavy TDs need to perform well against everything, which makes them quite expensive both cost and pop wise.
If heavy TDs are not forced anymore to perform well against cheaper units, they could get a better design.
No, heavy TD do not "need to perform well against everything" and they are not forced to, that is choice not necessity.
Giving deflection damage to all vehicles would be a very bad change and so would giving them 100% chance to hit.
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There is no problem with balance if the abilities would be the same. Please explain the problem you seem to see.
Ostheer hull down vehicles face 60 range TDs with high penetration, KV-1 do not.
KV-1 is already a very cost efficient tank it simply does not need any buffs.
Do you have reason why balance wise KV-1 neeeds a buff? else one can simply change the name of abilities... |
Yeah 20, my bad. In any case t70 I belive have around 2.3 or so ROF, meaning that it needs around 10 seconds, to deal 160 damage.
And honestly I dont think that horde of T70 should be able to kill KT. Like lets be real here, the only and single possible scenario when it might happen if KT is completly unsupported, but thats my imo.
Anyway deflection values and chances in vCoH werent universal and were specific for for pretty much any projectile, so such situations\units could have been ajusted to fit the game better.
As for spamming, the fact that game only has only hit\miss and pen\non-pen AT hits only promotes spamming high penetration units and massing AT guns or having TDs in the game balanced around solely the idea that they pottentually will be fighing heavy tanks, therefore they need godlike penetration values making them no-brainer against all types of armor. Honestly dont know what is worst.
Fact is in vCoH it worked, KT was a godlike tank in vCoH and only few units had cappabilities of actually penetrating it frontally, but since deflection damage existed it allowed your AT units to keep at least some value against it by dealing cheap damage to it. If it was CoH2, then pretty much all your AT units would have become obsolete the second vCoH like KT hits the field.
Main difference here is that most high penetration are specialized and thus not so good vs soft targets. Now what reason would there be to even build specialized units if 2 mediums tanks could do perform equally good vs heavily armored vehicles and bring AI on top of that?
As for the "no brainer" TD that was a design decision taken by the MOD team and a bad one in my opinion. There are other solutions. |
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Because of balance. |
vCoH deflection shots dealt 50% damage, even if we imagine that every single T70 shot would have been deflection, with its 40 maingun damage deflection would have delt 15 damage.
How big this horde must be to take out litteraly anything, even to make a difference and deal 160 damage you need 11 shots.
0.5 x 40 = 20 not 15.
How much time do you think that 4 T-70 need to fire 8 rounds?
Point here is that deflection damage promotes spamming vehicles while making Super heavies unable to cope. Already 3 SU-76 can take out an Elephant without any deflection damage, try to imagine what would happen if deflection damage was added.
Both the accuracy mechanisms and armor mechanism are good mechanisms that add dept to combat. People who do not like them should probably stick to AOE or other titles that do not have RNG elements. |
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