Ah yes the holy argument that the Jackson's far accuracy was nerfed too. The problem is that the Panther is in the most expensive tier 4 and the god of tier 3, the stug, is now nerfed beyond being able to crutch Ostheer. This means that you will still have an overpriced Panther in an overpriced Tier 4 fighting more cost efficient alternatives in more cost efficient tiers without the support of your heavily needed cost efficient tier 3 tank destoyer, which is now nerfed too.
Again, that's utter bollocks. Stug far penetration is 150. That's more than enough to penetrate USF paper armour all the time (only the sherman can now deflect 6% of the shots at max range). Thus, Stug nerfs have no effect over USF.
From what I remember 2 ISgs vs 2 unupgraded mortar pit would easily destroy the pits (especially with volks support with flame nades)
If we make Mortar Pits resilient to indirect fire, suddenly, you won't be able to kill them anymore with anything due to brace. Thus, it's hard to rebalance the pits without rebalancing brace, but we'll try.
DPS for tanks would only make sense if the state machine worked as follows:
1. Enemy spotted
2. Reload shot
3. Fire
4. Go to 2
Instead, it works like:
1. Enemy spotted
2. Fire
3. Reload
4. Go to 2
Basically, DPS completely ignores alpha damage, which is the most crucial part of the equation.
Moreover, DPS completely masks the effects of what happens when you increase the amount of tanks dealing damage. When you have 2 tanks opening up at once, the DPS doesn't simply just double; it goes even beyond that.
For instance, it takes an AT gun 4 shots to kill a T34. That means 3 reload cycles. If you put 2 AT guns on the work, that's still 4 shots, but that takes only one 1 reload cycle (that occurs in parallel between the 2 AT guns). That's 3 times faster, and a DPS calculation would completely ignore that.
Alpha damage is what allows Panther spam to be amazing despite the fact that singular Panthers are shit.
You can get away with DPS calculations for infantry, simply because the reload time is small, and the duration of combat is usually long (especially when cover is involved).
this is why i think the 60 range is a problem, it will be able to fire at tanks with a good chance of hitting while tanks like the panther WONT BE ABLE TO EVEN FIRE BACK, so you have to close in with its shtty accuracy penatlies which is no longer worth the risk because of jacksons health buff. If jackson is keeping its health buff the 60 range needs to go down.All that for 135 fuel.....cmon dude
Like, what the actual fuck?
Panther far accuracy: 0.03 (OKW Panther is 0.35)
Panther target size: 24
AI capabilities: kinda ok
Jackson far accuracy: 0.03
Jackson target size: 24
No target-shrinking capabilities
AI capabilities: inexistent
Jackson far penetration has been LOWERED too.
If the Jackson wants to fight vs Panthers at max range, while kiting, multiply the numbers I gave you by 0.421875
The chance to score a penetrating hit vs a non-blitzing panther at max range while moving is 30%. 30 fucking per-cent. Now, go play the mod before you make another post about the Jackson.
I see your point and you seem to be right, but funniest detail here is that the Jackson in 1.1 is kinda exactly as lethal vs tanks as the live version JP4 has been since release -equal range, fairly equal penetration vs the counterpart units, Jackson has better speed but JP4 has better accuracy, armor and smaller target size-, and also for 135 fuel (now 145 in FBP), and nobody ever complained about that. So why now the complaints about changes that havent even been really tested yet? ;/
About the topic: With HP buff and 60 range, Jackson should have same fuel cost as JP4 = 145 I agree.
Should jackson also get the same HP, armour and accuracy as the Jagdpanzer, too?
how inaccurate are we talking? can you be more specific for example chance of hitting a panther at max range.. etc...
Just mutiply accuracy of the jackson by the target size of the vehicle.
E.g.,:
- 60% chance to hit Stug at max range
- 72% chance to hit Panther at max range (ignoring lower penetration)
- 54% chance to hit blitzing OST Panther at max range
- 36% chance to hit blitzing OKW Panther at max range, cause OKW
- 78% chance to hit KT at max range (ignoring lower penetration)
- 39% chance to hit blitzing KT at max range, cause OKW
However, accuracy picks up very quickly, the closer you move.
Regarding Stug G , in my oppinion its frontal armor is so low (never seen a bullet bouncing). I still remember Stug from Coh1 and I liked it.
Maybe, reduce its power penetration on mid-long, increase fuel cost to 100-110 and increase the frontal armor (180-200 armor) to give that tank the intended role (counter to medium armor).
If i'm not wrong, T34_76 armor is 150 and Stug G is 140.
Stug is already situational enough. By making it more expensive we would be limiting its flexiblity. A cheap Stug might work well enough side-by-side with a cheap Ostwind. We haven't tested that, so we have to see it for ourselves, first.
T34 has 160 armour; stug-G has 140 armour at vet0 and 180 armour at Vet2. Allied medium tank penetration is between 100(far) and 120-130(near).
Stugs don't really win frontal engagements due to armour; they win these engagements due to overwhelming rate of fire and good accuracy. Giving extra armour to Stugs without lowering their rate of fire might make them OP vs mediums.
Lowering the rate of fire of the Stug means that OST will no longer have a reliable vehicle-based counter to enemy tank destroyers (which don't really care about how much armour the Stug has).
We could trade some additional penetration at far for some armour at front, but that will have knock-on effects on way more units than we can currently control inside the scope.
Can somebody who's competent enough compare this new stug with su-76? Because, you see, nobody's talking about how suchka's spam is effective vs heavies...After all, what else you can rely to as Wehr in terms of TDs? Ferdi? LUL
The Stug will still be more efficient vs heavies than the SU76. The Stug is also considerably more cost-efficient vs medium armour too, due to the pathetic accuracy of SU76, and the fact that SU76's turret is completely fixed.
We can't fix the SU76 penetration at this point because:
- The SU76 would have to receive accuracy buffs, which would hurt OST even more without T4 buffs
- King Tiger and is out of scope, if you can believe that
On the other hand, we can touch the Stug freely because every single allied vehicle with considerable armour is in scope. If there's a particular allied heavy that causes particular trouble to OST, we can simply adjust the heavy and be done with it.
With the changes to Stug Penetration I have to ask will this effect stugs countering KV8's. I have come across a few KV8's lately and the stug hasn't alway penetrated. Not to sure on range although I wouldn't have describe every encounter as max range. I don't really think the stug should have to close the distance especially if KV8 is accompanied by 2 zis guns..
So will this match up change or am I expected to get a panther????
If you don't want to risk closing the distance, accept that a few of your shots won't penetrate. The Stug still has enormous RoF and will still be very efficient for the cost.
If you want to take the KV8 down faster either get a 2nd Stug, or close the distance; or play defensively and let the KV8 close the distance. The KV-8 has a tiny range (25), and it's not like it can hurt your Stug in anyway.
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