+1
Relic already said that the 1v1 World Championship will be played with the current patch in November and even if I dont like it its at least consequential to let players play qualifiers and the World Cup with the current patch.
BUt after that....PLEASE RELIC let the community do 1 big winter balance patch. There are so many good ideas here; it would be a shame if they would not go live.
Hopefully that is the future  |
Overall nice changes, the only thing I still don't like is the schreck damage nerf.
As an extra argument against the schreck change is that this handheld AT may be used by plenty of stealth units: ostheer doctrines with ambush camo, stormtroopers and AT partisans. All these squads have the option to fire their schrecks at a really close range where the only thing that matters is the damage.
Also stormtroopers and AT partisans don't have the option to upgrade with a second schreck, unlike USF with zooks and UKF with piats.
I agree it is risky. Maybe grens should get some buff in exchange? (though I do understand that Sander believes that overall it would make pzgrens with shrecks more consistent).
I'm pretty sure you will be able to put away the sweeper only, the schreck stays, just like it works in the live version if your sweeper strums pick up a schreck.
I'd like to see the holstered shreck just to make it in line with the sturmpio original concept. Could also be really fun to see a group of sturms suddenly unholstering their shrecks. |
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Kibo played in the league of his own. He mocked Hans the whole game. I wouldn't draw any balance conclusions based on this specific matchup.
Generally Sturms are better pios. Lots of persisting opinions are based on the situation we had a patches ago (before all the buffs to cons, rifles and infantry sections). Since then sturms have been much easier to deal with and it is much easier to make them drop a model before they close in. Even cons can deal with them when stationary. Only a much better player than the allied opponent will be able to actually use Sturms effectively closing the distance and using them only at very close ranges. |
That's actually how trenches are for the Osttruppen Doctrine in live. I think as well as the community defensive doctrine and OKW heavy fortifications.
I just personally don't like the differences between different trenches behavior across the factions in the non-moded version. Sometimes Ur opponent can enter them, sometimes not, sometimes U get damaged when they are destroyed with a unit inside, some trenches just evacuate the unit without any harm, etc. I am also agains "free" stuff in game. Everything should have some cost to make the player actually think not just spam stuff mindlessly. (Sorry for a bit of a rant actually |
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Any version of those changes would be an improvement and step towards better balance. All suggestions so far are good (tbh everybody contributed sensible stuff imho) and should be implemented asap. What are we waiting for? |
Great stuff. Looks and plays really well I'd probably just add some manpower cost to all trenches (if there isn't any in Ur mod) in order not to spam them too mindlessly. |
The stuka can outright destroy the team weapon so you wont be able to recrew it. So the wholes are justified in this sense.
Just like written above. It depends how much hp was left on a team weapon. The holes should imo look different. There should be a damage aoe spread but the whole line should get damaged. It is quite difficult to target with a stuka so it should be rewarded. Its range is also inferior to Katyusha so it must close in more. So if U get hit by a rocket it should deal more damage, but the "between" rockets units should also get significantly damaged. The whole thing should be balanced so that is not too much but also not too litttle. The whole "line" should suffer Now the differences are too siginficant imo between the units that stand on the damage line. |
Ostheer has to stay a little longer in their base (building T1) to get the most diverse unit selection early game, it's balanced as it is imo.
Diverse - yes. Better - no. Other factions get access to their mgs, snipers, mortars not that much later to make it a significant difference. What makes the difference is the fact that allied infantry will simply become much stronger and durable, which will create imbalance. |
That is a rather pointless comparison, as the Panzerwerfer and Katyusha are very ineffective at max range because their scatter increases with range, while the Stuka's scatter is unaffected by range. I.e. the Stuka is the only one that can actually make use of the max range, while the Katy and the PW have to be used from as close as possible.
On the point of making a complete and fair comparison, the things it does better than other rocket artillery are: not limited by long range scatter (can always be used from the relative safety of max range); can deal up to 200 damage per rocket to vehicles because of very high AOE penetration (albeit a bug/oversight); comes much earlier than other rocket artillery; very high AOE damage/range means instant wipes can happen quite often. Other things it does worse are garrison and emplacement damage.
I'm not saying I disagree that the Stuka shouldn't get any changes. I've proposed an overhaul myself in my personal balance changes. But at least make the comparison even for the sake of the argument.
From my experience Katyusha is the deadliest (off all mentioned rocket arties) targeting retreat points with max range, especially after vet. Because it fires in salvos it does not have to time the barrage so precisely. On many maps (1v1) it can do it sitting almost in base sector. When vetted it is the longest range monster. Stuka has too big "holes" between the rockets. Usually it is much worse at dealing team weapons due to its rockets random behavior and the need to aim and time much more precisely. |
I appreciate the effort of removing the fuel cost of ostheer t1 in order to make grenadiers more appealing choice, but I think that there is more drastic action that is damn overdue. And no I'm not gonna cry about changing them, I've come to terms that they are considered taboo and relic would rather change 4 factions mainline to balance the game rather than one:
Moving grenadiers to t0 and MG42 to T1.
Ostheer is currently "forced" into using MG42 by design should you go for your mainline infantry. This means that the first thing you do as ostheer compared to any other faction that goes mainline is that you start building T1. You are from the start punished for going grenadiers as you immediately fall behind in map presence. The mg42 build time is also slower compared to other t0 units which again puts you behind in map presence.
Sure mg42 is great but if you want it to actively be used to its full potential it requires support in form of vision from pioneer to possibly get that early suppression and force retreat that you need. This is reduced from your capping potential. In addition to this versing USF or SOV you KNOW that they have the potential to flank & spank that MG if left alone, so you cannot use it for capping as effectively. The opponent can choose to try and hunt your mg after hitting that 2nd RM or 3rd con which means that by the time your 2nd gren rolls out those two grens and pio have to be close to your precious mg.
If you choose not to go mg42 not only are you being punished for having dead idle time not building early unit or you are left with a non-combat support unit in form of pioneer. You again also lose the time of having to build T1.
IF you really want to make grenadiers more appealing choice without modifying the unit you NEED to have them in T0. This would put ostheer to level playing field in competitive setting where early game is everything and can snowball you one way or another.
I would really like to hear especially from sanders perspective on why this structural reversion shouldn't be introduced. If we want to make grenadiers into more competitive option without changing them as a unit, I cannot come up with any logical arguments as to why this change should not be gone through with.
Lots of very good points. Finally somebody wrote that t0 mg can actually be more of a problem than a blessing earlygame. Especially, when contrary to brits, tier0 does not give the player mainline inf units. |
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