Can someone please explain to me how the bounce rates on armour works?
In 1 game i had a T34/85 bounce 4 shots in a row against a panther
And the same tank also bounced 3 shots on a Panzer 4.
It seems the SU85 (Which has the exact same gun) rarely ever bounces a round on German tanks, except from Tigers.
I find it irritating when a German tank is nearly dead, yet the game wants to rim you and make all your shots do nothing.
Also why do Soviet tanks rarely ever bounce shots? Soviet armour was way more sloped.
Is this just RNG?
RNG plus distance I guess. Sov tanks are designed to be effective close range agains axis tanks. Axis tanks generally have better penetration far and are more expensive. To even the odds you must close in on them. The exception is tank destroyers. Su 85 has a different gun and will penetrate reliably from a distance unless it is the heaviest amour. Remeber also that OKW panzer 4 is different (better and more expensive) to ostheer stock p4. |
I’m just trying to get discussion going about how to make them more interesting.
(...)
What I’m trying to do is suggest things that could make the game more interesting both gameplay wise and thematically. At the moment REs are a rather bland platform for minesweepers and Bazookas.
(...)
Rear Echelons aren’t bad, they’re just kinda stupid.
True - but it is all because of what I would call "rambo" style game development since the introduction of USK and OKW and later UKF followed the pattern. They movey away too far from the original paper/scisors/stone idea.
I would come back quickly to the idea that either you are an engineer or a combat unit. Engineer units should be best at repairing and supporting while other units should be good at fighting but bad support. USF broke this rule with their too OP vehicle crews and OKW with sturmpio avaliable from tier 0. Horrible idea. Crews, for example, are better at repairing than regular engineer units. OKW sturmpios imo were better than ostheer panzergrens when they were introduced. Just gross.
Quick solution:
Crit repairs should be, for example, moved only to engineer units, repairs should be quicker when performed by engineer units than by crews, etc. This alone would make echelons better. It would lead to players making tactical desicions such as - do I build another infantry squad to have raw killing power or maybe invest into a weaker engineer unit but will be able to support vehicles and fighting units better? Engineers should be squishy to make sure that combat units are a real threat to them. All this should be restored asap into the game. There could be like maybe one unit that is an exception from it, but not like echelons that are useless becuse free crews took over their job, or sturmpios killing all t0 units and being able to repair, mine, etc. |
A very bad idea. They are great the way they are already. They can equip bazookas plus minesweeper - great combo to support tanks. They can become 5 man squads and they vet quickly, especially with bazookas. The fact that they don't have to build or repair stuff, but can equip weapons from racks is already totally OP. You can just cap with them while some factions have to stop capping or supporting their main infantry to build base structures, repair, etc. If you put REs in cover or building they can already stop your opponent from pushing or they will damage your opponent's inf unit so that the rifle squad coming behind will win more easily. There are situations when they can hold against grenadiers long enough to give you time to react. You can speed repairs with them (re+crew). The fact that they even exist breaks the game balance in a sense that a USF player has huge map presence. I feel it is sort of situation: I have an extra unit that doesn't have to do much while other engineer units are busy, so I'd like to make it more powerful not realising that the unit is already more than good enough (btw - it already got buffed in many patches because of similar points of view, contributing to making USF OP). |
its a premium medium first not a tank destroyer...
It is an awkward TD with added mg. It should engage tanks long range and ram infantry as mgs are only somewhat effective close range. A bit like flying cow - not much sense unless only to prove that high price is justified
it also wins any engagement with allied TDs provided they dont begin to run... no its armor may not bounce allied TD rounds but its large HP pool and high speed means it can duel with allied TDs cost effectively in good hands... in bad hands yeah its gonna lose... but moreso for the allied TDs
Well, a big nope from me. If allied player can kite, panther will be lured into a snare, at, or mine. Panther wins only in isolation or when alled player blunders.
and dont forget that the panther as a premium medium can actually do damage vs infantry... allied TDs cant do that...
Close range only, which makes it rather pathetic - running a tier 4 expensive tank with 50 ammo added to it just to try to crush infantry and hope for some dmg from mgs. Compare to similarily priced comet. It would be so much better to have so HE rounds on the main gun. |
Not for current stug stats - 160 dmg per shot, high accuracy, 540 HP (it still need 4 shots to die) and 90 fuel cost.
Also OST have 60 range tool that completely counter any stock ally TD - pak40. It always penetrate them and have enough accuracy to not miss.
I don't agree with pak decription. Allies have good infantry which clears team wepon very quickly. This paired with lots of stock smoke options and fire, indirect fire, offmaps such as flame arty clear at guns quickly, or makes them run unable to shoot. Lack of a 60 range TD hurts a lot. |
There isn't a faction in the game that can choose between a Jackson and a Panther.
The Panther competes with the JPIV and the Panzer IV, the Jackson competes with the Sherman and the Scott.
As for the Panther/Jackson matchup, the Panther's armour doesn't do much, no.
What does do a lot for it is its extra HP: it kills a Jackson in four hits whereas a Jackson kills a Panther in six.
In a head to head battle, the Panther has a slight edge.
But the problem is that withvpanther you have to dive. M36 will shoot first and kite drawing you into mines, at guns, at hand held at and snares. So range, mobility, accuracy far, penetration, and repairs together with being cheaper make the matchup much less likely in panther's favour. IMO panther should become a premium medium generalist tank. It should probably be the best of mediums but also most expensive. Stug should be main 60 range at. Panther should be more like 50 range medium with decent penetration but rather a flanker but logical anty infantry performance. It should have two kinds of ammunition maybe. |
By a dedicated tank destroyer.
But that is the crux of the problem. Panther is also a tank destroyer that can be destroyed by tank destroyes while they are out of range. Usually, it's better to have range than armour in such case. Also pricewise it is more effective to buy a jackson than a panther.
Another problem is that those tank destroyers are balanced against doctrine heavies or king tiger. They are far too powerful against ostheer stugs, pazer 4s, ostwind, etc. as they outrange them plus, on top of that, deal ridiculous amounts of damage to tier 3 ostheer vehicles, and are extremely accurate. If you don't have the heavy tank you are totally at their mercy. You will never be able to balance that. Only stug with further range could help here imo. It would be much worse than jackson, su85 or firefly but they would at least have sth that could shoot at them from equal distance. It would lead to making them more careful and punished if they don;t pay attention, which would be enough. They would still beat stug decisively in 1v1 scenario. |
If you want 60 range Stug, it will have to get a cost and performance increase to be a JPIV 2.0 or it would be made to be as obsolete in current meta Su76 with 120dmg and high rof.
Let's be realistic and suggest things that can actually be implemented and are reasonable to be made, instead of playing victim about how X faction doesn't have Y feature. Because that's a game which all factions can play.
The comparisons should never be "Allies vs OH", rather than each specific allied faction vs OH if that's the comparison you want to bring up.
Well, it could be another su-76, with a bit better at performance. Su has barrage and would be cheaper and comes earlier.
I don't get the victim card comment. I just feel that buffing the rifles, allied heavies, not nerfing the jackson (5 fuel is laughable), simply means that "wehr weak penetration" could be sth that only sounds crazy but describes well the general balance between the tanks we have now. Allied tanks sort of "pretend" to be weak but whan you look at their battlefield performance it is not the case. |
And how would allies counter panther then?
Combined arms? |
Yes good points all around. Certain attributes are more determinstic than others for certain roles
But i still go for heat ap ammo as a vet bonus for the 3 wehr tanks.
It is a tested out come, easy to implement and a mixture of vipper selectable ammo idea.
Not a bad idea - yet it may simply be too powerful. Still all depends on "how" rather than "what". |