Thank you, I assume they are correct since the descriptions in the editor made sense to me.
I think we just slightly disagree. The Churchill is difficult to deal with, but I played it several times as Brits and I have to say it has quite some weaknesses, especially in smaller game modes where mobility matters. It needs a ton of support to not let it get snared and you're pretty much fixed to that point on the map with your main army, since relocating it takes some time. The latter is not a huge disadvantage in 3v3 and 4v4 since the map is just stuffed with units, but in 1v1 and 2v2 flanking is more prominent, so speed matters more.
I was mainly talking about 2v2 since I play that the most. Maybe that's where our difference comes from.
Could be.  I play 1v1 alomst solely. I have problems with brits as I haven't played them in a year or more. Still they really seem a bit over the top. |
Wow wow wow. I hope your calculations are correct. But what a tremendous piece of work
Anyway, chrchill is a bit too strong for ost imo. And it's not only due to repair speeds. Generally UK is pretty strong when against ost. And maybe the answer is to buff ost anti tank department slightly to deal with churchills. I also believe that stug is not the answer. You cant spend that much fuel and manpower ona units that wont help you against inf. As ost you are doomed then. Also firefly/jacskon/su85 will laugh at your stugs. It's just wrong tier at that stage of the game when churchills are around. |
Now because of the satchel you cant push them. Before even a 222 pushed them around. The ptrs was a downgrade before the atsatchel was added. It has a very short range for that reason. It can as you said be used to finish of or severly cripple already snared armour.
Not only cant you push them but also you can't close on them which means you will need more time to inflict dmg. |
The finishing satchel is then only possible for coordinated team games, since Soviets usually don't use Penals and side-teched cons in their builds, not even at my skill level anymore.
I think Panzergrenadiere have design issues. They were meant as the high damage elite infantry of Ostheer that specialize in AT or AI and can do their job very well. But I'm not sure if they're worth it since they cost so much MP to reinforce. But maybe I'm just biased due to the long time frame where they were pretty mediocre to bad.
Then again, you rarely need to push AT Penals out of cover since they do not do much damage to medium armor, while letting squadsreload their Panzerschrecks or Bazookas could be the end of your tank.
EDIT: I forgot mines of course. Yes, there you can finish a tank off with satchels.
Couldn't agree more. Panzergrens are still very delicate. You invest a lot of manpower plus 100 munitions and they can be too easily wiped. A risky unit. What's more they completely, one may say, lose their anty inf capabilities when upgraded with shrecks. So they become sort of expensive support unit. But to the point: allied ikfantry anti tank options are more varied than those of axis. |
Pgrens with shrecks have high alpha damage and fire their first shot very fast. Pushing them around is more risky then when penal didnt have the at satchal.
Ptrs penals where the easiest to push around by far, because the aim time is longer for the first shot and their alpha damage is pretty low.
Ost has 3 snares non doc. Pfausts plus twp on the pak and stug3, both of wich are pure at units. The teller also can work pretty effective in slowing down armour.
So imo pgrens defenitly do not need or are justified to have a snare after going shrecks. Because of the above.
I'm not pushing for it. I just feel that if some players complain that axis have all the snares they should be aware it's not that nice for ostheer especially.
Still, I don't agree that it's easy to push at penals. You basically can't let them close. They are especially dangerous to stugs and pz4. Yoy can pretty easily, thought it is risky, chase pzgrens to their base and wipe them. Their alpha dmg won't help if there is no gren around. They get wiped too easily for their cost. |
I think the big problem here is the assumption on everyone's part that everyone has the same experience at different points on the ladder.
At very high ELO Satchel Charges are weak: at 5 range they're very difficult to trigger because everyone's so good at maintaining optimal range with vehicles.
Similarly, unit preservation is very good so USF snares being behind veterancy isn't a big deal.
However, if you're playing at a level where frequent squad wipes are common, I can see how that veterancy lock would be a real problem.
True. However, when a vehicle does get snared it is a perfectly valid option to finish it off with a satchel/satchels. Happens on high level play too. Also satchels and snares on an at weapon holding squads eliminate certain possiblities of engaging them. It is sometimes a good idea to force an at squad out of cover or just try to crush it with a vehicle. You can do it against shrecked pzgrens or pios but can't do it against, for example, ptrs penals. In my opinion some snare should be given to pzgrens after they equip shrecks because too often they get crushed or just killed by a closely approaching vehicle (dmg close on vehicles is simply higher). Sometimes good players just circle pzgens not allowing them to shoot. A but too cheesy for me. |
I ran a test in cheat commands and a penal could kill a rilfeman squad in a 1v1 engagement almost every time even if they had a bar, not sure about the inf section but without the Bar the rilfes still got whacked. Seems pretty pathetic that for 20 mp more you can get an immensely more effective squad or in the UKF's case the same amount. Everyone always talks about giving all your rifle men Bars is the reason why they are expensive, but take any other unit in the game and apply the same logic. Should grens price be increased because they can get MG42 or G43? How about the infantry section, that outclasses the riflemen in almost every category. Should they cost more because of Bren guns?
But you play against axis not allies. You could argue about how they scale against volks or grens. |
Well if you upgrade the G43 you can still get 1 Panzershreck and keep the snare
Panzergrens can't do that. Axis don't have satchels. So it's the allies who have all the snares. |
From my experience with the chill, when it damaged, it will have to fall back, the tank is rather slow and if snared, it will take about an haft of hour to get to some place where i can safely repair it without risking my engi taking arty, weffer or stuka. Then,after all the repair, it will take another haft of hour to drive the tank up to the line again. Somke repairs turn tank into a sitting duck ao pop it up in the front line is not a good idea.
Meanwhile Heavy sapper still repair slower than sweeper stumpio, plus OKW have a stock auto repair building.
Heavy sapper is a 60 amo upgrade lockes behind latest teck, while stumpio come out with support package from the stat.
My point is, the churchill doesn't come back to action supper quick as you clame.
From my experience it does come back more quickly. Often it seems to get back the hp under smoke too quickly to get destroyed. Of course you need to figure out and it takes some skill to repair it close to front line but far enough not to get killed.
Still, it's not a sitting duck if properly supported. When axis units concentrate on a churchill, all other UK unis deal with them pretty quickly decrewing paks etc. The amount of dmg it can sustain makes it possible for other units to mop up. Usually it is the axis (especially ost) that need to withdraw and chrchill can repair and continue the push. |
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A very good idea, especially with reload. |
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