3. The smoke repair is doctrinal. As Axis, just put down your doctrinal repair bunker and power rep your tank as well. To be honest, the repair discussion is pretty tedious as we're both lacking real arguments in terms of "how long does the tank need to repair" with/without abilities/1/2 engineers.
1. So maybe give structure to the discussion by discussing how much you want to nerf it then.
1+2. If your enemy assaults with artillery (mun investment or MP+FU investment), most of his infantry (MP) and an expensive amount of resource investment in vehicles, then maybe he deserves win the fight if you're not willing to pay as much?
The Brit arty is not super instant. The most threatening part is if he attacks your AT guns, but your AT gun can normally dodge the arty if you take care, so there's only a limited window of opportunity for him to attack. Also, you made a mistake by letting his IS get close to your AT gun.
If you're talking about Sextons -> where's your stuff? The enemy obviously had enough fuel to pump out a Sexton, Churchill and a Firefly, so you should have a Tiger and a Panther/King Tiger and JP4 by then. Now please don't try to tell me that a King Tiger can't stop a Churchill and a JP4 can't threaten a Firefly. At this point you probably don't even need support weapons to win that fight.
1..Smoke repair is doctrinal but heavy sappers are not. Still having super repairs and such tanks in one commander makes it OP. Chrchill will deal dmg to crew weapons, tanks etc. and will come back fighting before those units have a chance to replace lost squad members or repair their own tanks. Churchill will start dealing dmg again with max health too quickly pushing axis off WP too easly. You just can't kite it forever.
2. I already explained what should be done imo (4 options): these repairs should be much more expensive, or panther should get tungsten rounds (similar to jacksons), or give ost/okw a satchel charge (could be panzergrens with shrecks or okw panzershreck sturmpios to prevent crushing them and punish parking it in the middle of at units), or make it simply more expensive to reflect its actual performance. |
That's basically the difference between efficiency and efficacy. In language use, they're often mixed up (I do it as well), but they're different.
You can also buy a Firefly to kill a horde of Luchs'. Firefly hard counters the Luchs. Is it effective? Yes. Is it efficient? No. A Cromwell would do the same job for less cost.
Anyway, panthers deal damage to churchills too slowly and tank destroyers deal dmg to panthers (let alone poor stugs) much more quckly. |
1. Thank you for confirming Katitof's and my point. The Panther is NOT THE MOST COST EFFICIENT COUNTER. It will fight it back, but take quite some time, that's what we said and why we suggested StuGs or whatever. You're complaining about a unit that is not perfectly suited for a certain situation to be not perfectly suited for said situation. Whats your point? Also, if your Panther gets immediately (at the beginning of the fight) countered by enemy TDs, you should work on your unit and frontline spacing. Panthers are not the first unit your enemy should see. With almost the same logic, I could say that Allies can't counter the heavier Axis tanks, since the TDs that I park in front of my troups get shredded first and after that I (obviously) don't have that potent AT anymore. A Churchill is a beefy unit, you need to adapt by falling back in a controlled fashing -> elastic defense.
Btw, if your enemy has Churchill and Firefly, you should have a Panther and a JP4/Tiger+Stug+some fuel left. And since we apparently can generate situations as we wish to support our arguments: JP4 counters firefly, Panther counters Churchill -> EzPz win.
2. That's a completely new point. Please elaborate how IS sections and artillery hinder your Panther to shoot at the Churchill.
3. OKW can power repair as well with upgraded Sturmpios and the Mechanized HQ. Just OST is slightly on the weak side repairwise. Always has been. But then again for 35 mun you can always stun the Churchill with your PaK to get another salvo of free rounds into it. That ability is vet1 but non-doc. And you gain 5 muni compared to your enemy.
1. Most of the stuff you write here are basics and I agree with them. I still think churchill gives advantage to UK. The health pool makes it too potent.
2. It will render most support weapons useless including paks.
3. As a heavy tank with such immense health should be repaired relatively slowly, not faster than most axis tanks. |
Panthers ARE ahard counter to Churchills. Panthers pen with 92% change while only being penned with 44% (and at range 40 they'd pen close to 100%). If every Churchill shot hits, a Churchill still needs 15 shots while the Panther needs only 10 shots on average (both pen corrected). Panthers are just not the most cost effective unit to use, StuGs are better for that purpose.
Other points:
1. Why? They fare well against all Allied heavies except maybe the IS-2. There's no need for an "Panther will always pen with 100%"-button. Also, since you mention doctrinal abilities in point 3: Panther already has access to HEAT rounds.
2. Axis have very cost efficient TDs for the Churchill. Faust it and you can shoot at it for almost an eternity
3. Grenade cost is absolutely standard and has short range. Smoke repairs is fairly priced. Brit players send additional sappers to a heavily damaged Churchill since the smoke repair only repairs half of the Churchill's health.
1. Panthers need too much time to inflict enough dmg to make it back off. They are hard countered by at units including tanks (firefly/jackson/su85) and have to back off much more quickly. Basically the hard counter to panther dmages it more quickly than the panther dmgs churchill (in proportion to its health pool).
2. With brit arty options and infantry sections you won't have that much time.
3. High health pool plus fast repairs give it too much power as it will come back fighting more quickly than more fragile azis tanks.
Option: Just make it more expensive, say similar price to a panther.
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That's why you're not supposed to sit on 1 panther, but build stugs.
As far as KRUPP STAHL goes, panther isn't answer to everything.
L2P.
And here we agree. The panther is not but is should be a hard counter to stuff like churchill (with support of course). BTW the whole combined arms are not the answer. Chrchill simply is OP. Brits have too easy life with this unit. I can't believe how ppl can even suggest churchill is too weak. Remember the game is about pushing you off the VPs. Axis can't be constantly moving away from churchills and fireflies kiting them.
Solution options:
1. Give panthers some munition paid tungsten rounds;
2. Give some axis units satchels to deal some decent damage when chrchill just overextends;
3. Increase the munition cost of those OP abilities such as grenades and smoke repairs. It should be emergency repairs not making sappers do other jobs instead of repairs (lots of players combine both sappers and smoke and repair them too fast). |
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Churchill is OP. With equal support the Brits have much higher chances of winning engagements in 1v1 against axis. IMO it's due to those extra abilities such as smoke repairs, grenades etc. U can just throw your sappers with at into main line and push. Add all brit artillery options and IS with lmgs and paks dont stand a chance. Panthers dont deal enough dmg to them to take them out fast enough to stop the push. |
Ok. I changed my mind. Make it a tank destroyer as it used to be  |
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I'd make flame its mg and make the gun a light anti tank piece. Could be interesting bearing in mind it has no turret. (oops I'm necroing a bit). |
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Just remember that with crew repairs a snare on an allied light vehicle is often lost munitions. They will just crew repair and absorbing a few shrecks (one at a time) is actually quite a viable strategy of draining ostheer of munitions.
Another thing is that allies tend to equip their infantry with anty infantry weapons a lot and that's how they build their potent infantry blobs. They spend a lot of munitions to be good at dealing with infantry (or don't equip penals with ptrs). It's part of the gameplay. If you don't equip your units with bazookas but with lmgs/bars you risk being countered by a vehicle. You just can't have the best of both worlds: really potent anty inf blob and great at destroying tanks. But to be fully honest its close to that anyway. |
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Oh dear. Allies have MORE snares including very powerful satchel charges. What's more, they often combine snares on the same unit with ant tank weapons (you can have a bazooka, ptrs, and a snare on one unit) Axis often face light vehicles and tanks rolling over their anti tank infantry with a vehicle making them unable to use a panzershreck (they cant stand still snd dont fire or just get crushed by a tank). Impossible against allies as they will snare you. So actually its the other way around. Allies have a lot of snares combined often with at weapons, which makes closing to those units impossible. Its a huge tactical advantage. |
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