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In my experience (pretty much exclusively 1v1, but the occasional team game), pios can just about trade favourably with concripts, but only for a short time at the very start of the game. For them to be able to win in your situation, it must have been a miracle from the rng gods, rare but it can happen. |
you can teach him how to use the word ironic next
Hey man, he has a PhD. |
Just wanted to start a discussion on the perception of balance where the difficulty of a faction is the driving force for common views on how each unit performs.
From my browsing on this forum and the COH2 subreddit, I think a fairly common sentiment is that both axis factions (more so Ost, but OKW is not far behind, at least as game modes get larger) are fairly braindead to play atm. The overall design of these factions, in addition to unit philosophy and performance is what makes this seem like a fact. At the core of it, it's a lot easier to micro one very powreful unit (axis) than several weak units (allies). Additionally, axis is generally more forgiving now when it comes to losing units, since they have many backup tools that can help them stall back into the game.
When it comes to performance/cost, I don't think any faction is significantly more "OP" than another, but I think the reality of how immune a faction is to fuckups is what shapes perceptions of balance.
I think rather than discuss how to avoid making units OP, for COH3 we need to equally discuss how to make each faction relatively similar in simplicity of play, and not the huge gap like there is between axis and allies in both coh1 and 2.
I think you're right in the sense that the Allies are definitely more micro intensive, and that Axis generally get more powerful lategame units. But i don't think either side is immune to fuckups or being punished for signifcant mistakes. For me, different units are just far more effective at different stages of the game and you therefore have to play to your strengths. Though both sides have definitely had their fair share of OP units over the years as well. Can't speak for team modes, though i'm aware that certain tactics that probably wouldn't necessarily work in a 1v1 can be really obnoxious to deal with. |
the okw MG isn't horrible, the leig performs perfectly fine for its cost, volks cant have good scaling because obers exist. Pfusiliers exist so you can bypass the weak infantry problem
they are not vulnerable to team weapon spam because they have non-doc and doc tools available by like minute 6
snipers can be annoying but two of six okw doctrines have jli and the 221 in 1 of 6, and non doc you can harass snipers with kubel rushes (if its an early sniper)
the okw p4 is a good tank, it gets outmatched when allies get their tank destroyers but it does good vs most allied medium tanks (for some reason the t-34/85 is chronically impotent or godly vs this tank, given the RNGesus mood of that match)
the walking stuka is admittedly easy to dodge (if the rocket pattern is predictable), but its far from unreliable. It works good to smash infantry blobs and is exceptionally good at massacring team weapons. additionally, if you rush it, you can make one by minute 8/9, werfers and katy arrive later
It's ok, i didn't need a point by point rebuttal. I was just answering you. |
like what weakness?
their biggest weakness is badly placed tech structures that allow for allied players to destroy them and hinder the OKW player significantly. arty spam should be the go to tool for any offensive OKW hq placement
Relatively weak team weapons and mainline infantry whose effectiveness drops off a cliff in the mid to lategame (though yes, they do have stock elites to compensate for this). Outside of certain doctrines they're pretty vulnerable to snipers and team weapon spam. Heavily reliant on the Ausf. J, which i don't think is the best medium either, for its cost, and rocket artillery that while incredibly powerful, is less consistent and easier to dodge than the Ostheer Werfer.
Of course, this isn't to suggest the they don't have a number of powerful tools that other factions lack (hello konig), but they definitely have weaknesses too. |
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Agree. Spearhead coupled with Elite Armoured is broken. Aside from that though, the faction does have some pretty glaring weaknesses that can be exploited, particularly in the mid game. |
Oh man, if we're talking about OP stuff. Here's a list.
You were probably around for IL-2/T-34 ram combo. It wasn't OP per say but it was a high risk, high reward for a big swing in either direction. Either an enemy heavy tank died or you were out 250 muni and a T-34. Heavies were pretty powerful but they all had the weakness of dying to this combo.
Now going farther back. When Rifle Commander was released, the E8 was an insanely good tank. It was super accurate on the move and the AoE on the shell shredded infantry. You could run circles around enemy squads and still blast them with every E8 shot. Really fun to play until the E8 ran into a mine.
You used to be able to do call-ins on enemy home bases. So you would see artillery or loiters on your base sometimes if you were losing particularly hard. The worst abuser was the OKW tactical nuke from OKW Salvage Doctrine (iirc). Back in the day OKW had lower munitions and fuel income but their OST allies could build caches to up their income. OKW players using this would save up about 600+ munitions then call in the arty barrage on their base (most of the time on USF) and destroy their entire base with one click. It was pretty nuts. You can actually see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rp6gleSyDw
Penals used to get flamers (as someone mentioned) which was amazing on them because of the high member count and the already high AI damage. HOWEVER flamers back in the day had a random chance of exploding and killing units if being shot at.
Volk shrek blobs used to be a mainstay of the OKW army. They always had 3 volk squads with shrek upgrades which would counter any vehicle that allies could throw at them. What also sucked is back in the day, calliope wasn't in the game so only Soviets had rocket arty to counter these shrek blobs.Volk shrek blobs were insanely durable but also bled MP like crazy for the OKW player.
USF Riflemen used to have smoke grenade so they could self smoke MGs. What usually happened though was 2 Riflemen squads would hit an MG, one to smoke, and one to push up and throw grenade. Although 1 squad could do it themselves. I think MG42/34 suppression was upped so that 1 squad couldn't do it alone.
Up until recently, Soviet 120mm was basically a broken unit that didn't work for its price. The barrage took longer to fire than the autofire and the AoE was non-existent. Then it got fixed and then nerfed.
OST Close Air Support doctrine used to be insanely good. It had a button that let you instantly convert MP (then eventually fuel) to munitions, no pickup required. It had a anti-infantry strafing run call-in and an anti-armour strafe call-in. No one ever used the anti-infantry strafe because the anti-armour strafe destroyed infantry better than it damaged tanks. So you would have OST players just constantly calling in anti-armour strafes on infantry.
I'm trying to think of other stuff that was broken that come to mind but I think most of the stuff was mentioned like Tiger Ace and ISU-152 HE shells.
As someone who played the original game to death, but not so much coh 2 until pretty recently, i am loving this thread. I have no previous knowledge of any of this stuff. Its a fun read. |
I agree. As an USF player, I know that if you manage to close in to grens or volks or pfussies, Rifles will dominate them hard, and I mean really hard... but there is a trick to closing in without losing models on most maps. Redball, one MG42 can lock down half a VP and fuel, and with pios dominating rear echelon, on such maps you really do have to be perfect in execution to avoid an MG42 while keeping tabs on grens. In 1v1 that's diffused due to the fact that there are no chokepoints on such maps, but teamgames... yeah. I mostly blame the retarded map design and especially retarded green cover placements on 3v3+ maps
You're right, the map pool probaby has a big influence on player perception of this as well. |
Truth be told, 80% of infantry engagements are medium-long range, where volks and grens win. Rifles win short to medium range (lower end of medium range spectrum)
Ok, but he's acting like you have to play absolutely perfectly to beat ostheer mainlines. It's definitely harder for USF against volks in the early game and during their STG spike, but against Grens? No way do you have to find the 'perfect engagement' to beat them, its exaggeration. Yes, rifleman get bled out at range but they murder them up close. |
You can't. You need to find the perfect engagement opportunities while paying MORE. This should be the other way around.
This simply isn't true, they absolutely can beat Grens at any range except long. I have no idea why you think the matchup is so difficult. |
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