When you have a konig you are invincible

their biggest weakness is badly placed tech structures that allow for allied players to destroy them and hinder the OKW player significantly. arty spam should be the go to tool for any offensive OKW hq placement

you solved your problem yourself mister.

misplaced flak hqs are way more common than you think (and are the reason why I got banned in the first place since I told my teammate in some words that maybe he deemed offensive that he lost his flak hq due to his stupidity putting it in the middle of the map).

I said Raketen + KT. Because as I said the KT is a force multiplier that put the cheap and resilient raketen into orbit of Opness when associated together. The reste I questioned the need for the raketen to have those stats since OKW isn't a faction laking of AT.

Your previous post listed also other units, my initial response was mostly referring to those.
OKW does lack early AT though. That was the whole reason why the Schreck got more accessible. The Puma needs to be optional due to OKW's tech system. A usable ATG is also a must for any faction, you can see what issues a lack of penetration causes for USF already. If an ATG cannot deal with even mediums reliably, there is barely any reason to buy it in the first place.

Doctrinal units are doctrinal, KT isn't then I don't really understand your argumentation about cost opportunity and the KT and how it impacts the topic. Why would you get something else that a KT that can fight tanks and infantry and force your opponent to invest more resources in TDs. I mean unless your opponent already has 2 or more TDs (and even in that case a KT can still be a good choice). I mean every single late game that last enough sees a KT pop out because it simply the best late game unit, it requires much less micro than any equivalence in cost to be used efficiently.
I mean I come back to the TD scenario, do you think building a panther or 2 P4j to fight of TDs is going to be better than a KT associated with a pair of raketen? To me it's map dependant and also dependant on what else the opponent still has on the field but the KT is still rather the superior solution.

If a unit is doctrinal or not does not matter. Your argumentation was that OKW as a faction has to work without the KT, meaning that building the KT on top will make the build OP. That works for basically all units that are not in the standard build order, including doctrinal ones.

The cost opportunity point is very simple, you can basically boil it down to this: The KT has weaknesses, that you would not have if you'd build something else with your resources instead. Your KT is slow, can be flanked/overrun, not respond to a shifting front line, you cannot rush with it etc. It needs heavy support by the rest of your army, focusing you in one single spot.
Other tanks for example are able to operate more on their own, can be dived to kill artillery etc. That's your cost opportunity, and sometimes the best counter to heavies is not even TDs, but artillery to bleed out all infantry and keep the tanks barely supported. That's the cost opportunity you have. Not even mentioning that I have seen many opponents throw their game because they stalled too long for their heavy.

Obviously all of this is heavily map dependent. On some maps you'll get more benefits, on some others rather the weaknesses.

6/7% is huge and clearly noticiable otherwise why would they nerf them this amount? Cosmetic?

I said it is noticable, so what is the point?
I assume the reason for the nerf was, that previously TDs were penning 300 armor heavies like the Tiger with close to 100% chance. Basically, a vet3 TD evaporated all meaning of Axis armor. I assume the KT was not really taken into consideration, or deemed to be okay.

The second KT over-pushes or left without support it literally dies, considering Allies army consists of something more then inf. The bigger gamemode is the harder it becomes to kill it, since its harder for OKW to fuck up. But I guess, you know what you sign for in a first place by playing teamgames.

KT is annoying when its played like a mobile bunker, firing from behind, but all super heavy units are supper annoying to fight be it JT, ELE, KV2, ISU firing from the safe distance.

Your previous post listed also other units, my initial response was mostly referring to those.
OKW does lack early AT though. That was the whole reason why the Schreck got more accessible. The Puma needs to be optional due to OKW's tech system. A usable ATG is also a must for any faction, you can see what issues a lack of penetration causes for USF already. If an ATG cannot deal with even mediums reliably, there is barely any reason to buy it in the first place.


If a unit is doctrinal or not does not matter. Your argumentation was that OKW as a faction has to work without the KT, meaning that building the KT on top will make the build OP. That works for basically all units that are not in the standard build order, including doctrinal ones.

The cost opportunity point is very simple, you can basically boil it down to this: The KT has weaknesses, that you would not have if you'd build something else with your resources instead. Your KT is slow, can be flanked/overrun, not respond to a shifting front line, you cannot rush with it etc. It needs heavy support by the rest of your army, focusing you in one single spot.
Other tanks for example are able to operate more on their own, can be dived to kill artillery etc. That's your cost opportunity, and sometimes the best counter to heavies is not even TDs, but artillery to bleed out all infantry and keep the tanks barely supported. That's the cost opportunity you have. Not even mentioning that I have seen many opponents throw their game because they stalled too long for their heavy.

Obviously all of this is heavily map dependent. On some maps you'll get more benefits, on some others rather the weaknesses.


I said it is noticable, so what is the point?
I assume the reason for the nerf was, that previously TDs were penning 300 armor heavies like the Tiger with close to 100% chance. Basically, a vet3 TD evaporated all meaning of Axis armor. I assume the KT was not really taken into consideration, or deemed to be okay.

You're right having the raketen being not efficient vs medium would be bad for design. But raketen that aren't effectively countered by infantry is also bad for design. The problem with the raketen is its price and usability when associated with heavies and super heavies.
Then I don't understand your comment on OKW not having AT at every stage of the game, the raketen is the only T0 atgun available whenever and whatever you tech. SPshreck just made OKW T2 irrelevant since how you can easily keep at bay light and medium just with the raketen/SPshrek and pfaust until the p4j hit the field.

KT weakness is usually offset by allies and the fact that late game both side have losses. Obviously if you're the only one bleeding and playing badly the KT will not be anymore your free out of hell card. But in the case, and its the majority of situations, you and your opponent are suffering heavy losses and then come the moment to replace them with new units then the KT is simply superior to anything else. Because you don't really need to assess your opponent forces, out of the gate your KT is going to be superior to whatever your opponent would also build or call-in to replace its own losses. So yes maybe in the case your opponent still have a ML20 or Priest/Sexton maybe the KT isn't going to be the best choice but you can still make it so. And any other situation will be KT > all.

This is why I say you can't balance OKW without the KT, if the KT exists and is stock then it means its should be part of any regular build order. As much as the HMG42 or Jacksons.
Because the HMG42 is part of Ostheer their infantry is only 4men squad supposely inferior to other mainline infantry.
Because the Jackson is part of USF late game then USF has shitty other AT and no late game meatshield tank.
Why would it be different for OKW and the KT? Why would OKW be on par with other factions without it if it exist and is superior to anything else?

The second KT over-pushes or left without support it literally dies, considering Allies army consists of something more then inf. The bigger gamemode is the harder it becomes to kill it, since its harder for OKW to fuck up. But I guess, you know what you sign for in a first place by playing teamgames.

KT is annoying when its played like a mobile bunker, firing from behind, but all super heavy units are supper annoying to fight be it JT, ELE, KV2, ISU firing from the safe distance.

The only ""unfair"" part about KT is when it is equipped with Panzer Commander + HEAT shells. Then it not only becomes mobile bunker it becomes the best tank sniper, outshooting even jacksons etc.

Other than that, KT is in the perfectest place tech and money wise, and I do not really get the coping posts on all these pages.

The only ""unfair"" part about KT is when it is equipped with Panzer Commander + HEAT shells. Then it not only becomes mobile bunker it becomes the best tank sniper, outshooting even jacksons etc.

Idk really. It is cancerous for sure, but honestly in terms of CoH2 its a standard cancer, not the bat shit broken one.

Say, for instance, if KT is bunking and you are bleeding VP it wont make whole a lot of difference. Sure KT would have much easier time shooting you, but at the same time frontal assault on the supported KT already puts you in a huge disadvantage. It a global picture, if OKW is able to defend properly\your attack was bad, you will lose engagement just a bit quicker with PZ commander+Heat, but even without it you will most likely lose it.

On the other hand if KT is badly played or you are able to utilize smoke\abilities\multi-directional pushes mentioned combo wont really save the KT, sure you might lose more units in process, but overall outcome will be the same.

And as I said, its the super heavy gameplay and over-all coh2 gameplay to blame, not particularly KT. Since any well placed and supported super heavy, with or without abilities, is super hard to deal with. You pretty much have to fuck up whole flank in order to get it.

or you are able to utilize smoke\abilities\multi-directional pushes mentioned combo wont really save the KT

I just love multi directional pushes on maps like Rheine or Redball or [insert 90% of teamgame maps here]

Relatively weak team weapons and mainline infantry whose effectiveness drops off a cliff in the mid to lategame (though yes, they do have stock elites to compensate for this). Outside of certain doctrines they're pretty vulnerable to snipers and team weapon spam. Heavily reliant on the Ausf. J, which i don't think is the best medium either, for its cost, and rocket artillery that while incredibly powerful, is less consistent and easier to dodge than the Ostheer Werfer.

Of course, this isn't to suggest the they don't have a number of powerful tools that other factions lack (hello konig), but they definitely have weaknesses too.

the okw MG isn't horrible, the leig performs perfectly fine for its cost, volks cant have good scaling because obers exist. Pfusiliers exist so you can bypass the weak infantry problem

they are not vulnerable to team weapon spam because they have non-doc and doc tools available by like minute 6

snipers can be annoying but two of six okw doctrines have jli and the 221 in 1 of 6, and non doc you can harass snipers with kubel rushes (if its an early sniper)

the okw p4 is a good tank, it gets outmatched when allies get their tank destroyers but it does good vs most allied medium tanks (for some reason the t-34/85 is chronically impotent or godly vs this tank, given the RNGesus mood of that match)

the walking stuka is admittedly easy to dodge (if the rocket pattern is predictable), but its far from unreliable. It works good to smash infantry blobs and is exceptionally good at massacring team weapons. additionally, if you rush it, you can make one by minute 8/9, werfers and katy arrive later

Panzerfusiliers are overhyped. Volks are much better early and always have the option to launch a lava nade. I'd take cheaper volks over panzerfusies and build the mines with the difference in upgrade munitions.

Edit: Why whould you gentlemen care about scaling of your mainline when you have the absolute terminator stock in your roster ?

Edit 2: Though I agree axis factions are a little bit on the strong side.

very good take on the topic

the okw MG isn't horrible, the leig performs perfectly fine for its cost, volks cant have good scaling because obers exist. Pfusiliers exist so you can bypass the weak infantry problem

they are not vulnerable to team weapon spam because they have non-doc and doc tools available by like minute 6

snipers can be annoying but two of six okw doctrines have jli and the 221 in 1 of 6, and non doc you can harass snipers with kubel rushes (if its an early sniper)

the okw p4 is a good tank, it gets outmatched when allies get their tank destroyers but it does good vs most allied medium tanks (for some reason the t-34/85 is chronically impotent or godly vs this tank, given the RNGesus mood of that match)

the walking stuka is admittedly easy to dodge (if the rocket pattern is predictable), but its far from unreliable. It works good to smash infantry blobs and is exceptionally good at massacring team weapons. additionally, if you rush it, you can make one by minute 8/9, werfers and katy arrive later

It's ok, i didn't need a point by point rebuttal. I was just answering you.

the okw MG isn't horrible, the leig performs perfectly fine for its cost, volks cant have good scaling because obers exist. Pfusiliers exist so you can bypass the weak infantry problem

they are not vulnerable to team weapon spam because they have non-doc and doc tools available by like minute 6

snipers can be annoying but two of six okw doctrines have jli and the 221 in 1 of 6, and non doc you can harass snipers with kubel rushes (if its an early sniper)

the okw p4 is a good tank, it gets outmatched when allies get their tank destroyers but it does good vs most allied medium tanks (for some reason the t-34/85 is chronically impotent or godly vs this tank, given the RNGesus mood of that match)

the walking stuka is admittedly easy to dodge (if the rocket pattern is predictable), but its far from unreliable. It works good to smash infantry blobs and is exceptionally good at massacring team weapons. additionally, if you rush it, you can make one by minute 8/9, werfers and katy arrive later

There are nine OKW commanders not six...

If you did not manage to beat OKW when he has no flak hq (meaning no heavy inf either) and he succesfully stalled for kongigstgiger then in all honesty you deserve to get beaten.

Yup. Because it's not like he can build Obers prior to it getting destroyed. Or you know... use Falls, Jaegers or Fusies (like 80% of OKW games) which is more than enough to keep your Volks from getting run over while you stall for KT.

The only ""unfair"" part about KT is when it is equipped with Panzer Commander + HEAT shells. Then it not only becomes mobile bunker it becomes the best tank sniper, outshooting even jacksons etc.

Other than that, KT is in the perfectest place tech and money wise, and I do not really get the coping posts on all these pages.

It also gets 68 Vision with Panzer Commander and Spearhead combined which is pretty broken.

Heat Shells should strictly be for armor only. It should not be a massive buff vs infantry as well outright deleting entire squads in one hit like its a Sturmtiger.

It also gets 68 Vision with Panzer Commander and Spearhead combined which is pretty broken.

Heat Shells should strictly be for armor only. It should not be a massive buff vs infantry as well outright deleting entire squads in one hit like its a Sturmtiger.

Absolutely agree to the Spearhead/Panzer Commander combo being quite a problem. An anti-everything unit with that much range, armor and HP probably shouldn't get access to 68 sight without any significant drawback. But outside of that specific combo I'd say the KT is fine as is.

Regarding HEAT shells, I think the AI boost they provide is quite a bit overhyped in general. For anything other than the KT the DPS/KPS increase is barely noticeable, since, due to the shape of the AoE profiles of those units, most of the bonus damage is wasted against 80 HP targets anyway.
The KT does get considerably more mileage out of HEAT rounds against infantry, especially when in cover, but it's also far from the +30% the tooltip might suggest.
Still, while I wouldn't waste the munitions for HEAT shells on a Pz.IV when engaging infantry, it can be well worth it on the KT in some situations.

Still, while I wouldn't waste the munitions for HEAT shells on a Pz.IV when engaging infantry, it can be well worth it on the KT in some situations.

The current implementation of Heat Shells is rather retarded in my opinion. It would be better if it worked in a similar way to the Sherman ammo switch ability. This way they can remove the +30% damage bonus while still have the penetration bonus without having to pay ammo for it.

The current implementation of Heat Shells is rather retarded in my opinion. It would be better if it worked in a similar way to the Sherman ammo switch ability. This way they can remove the +30% damage bonus while still have the penetration bonus without having to pay ammo for it.

Half the OKW armor already have AP round only, what would the be a reason to switch?

Yup. Because it's not like he can build Obers prior to it getting destroyed. Or you know... use Falls, Jaegers or Fusies (like 80% of OKW games) which is more than enough to keep your Volks from getting run over while you stall for KT.

So what? All of the units you listed are snareless and can do jack shit against armor. You should capitalize on that to push through to victory.

KingTiger is either a luxury someone can afford due to playing against retards or a last chance to turn the game. If you play your cards right you would never be in a situation facing a KT.

Yup. Because it's not like he can build Obers prior to it getting destroyed. Or you know... use Falls, Jaegers or Fusies (like 80% of OKW games) which is more than enough to keep your Volks from getting run over while you stall for KT.

In a game with half decent players if you lose your flak base before you get armor it's pretty much gg.

In a game with half decent players if you lose your flak base before you get armor it's pretty much gg.

Is it even possible to lose the flak so fast in a teamgame? You'd have to overextend AT guns, which means one flank from ally it's gg for you. Not to mention the length to actually destroy it. Unless you have such a mass of indirects that nothing can withstand it, but then you wouldn't really have any map control. Of course, there are "let me put the flak HT in the middle of the map" players. But that is either "you snowball so hard you can put it" or it's your first time playing. Haven't seen a destroyed flak before the first armour comes out. Maybe during construction if penals found it.

KingTiger is either a luxury someone can afford due to playing against retards or a last chance to turn the game. If you play your cards right you would never be in a situation facing a KT.

Not really true. This implies that OKW has a weak overall roster. If you have 2 teams of top 10 players playing each other, where mistakes are seldom, KT will be on the field if the game prolongs. To never be in a situation facing the KT, means that you have to capitalize on the weakness of OKW early on. OKW in teamgames has few weaknesses against all but soviets. And even against them, some maps deny the soviets. Not to mention that you could have a brit in a team, which in 95% of cases means that you have to really bring your A game. The few weaknesses OKW has can be rectified by a commander choice (and overall most OKW commanders are great, and they have a full stock roster)

In a game with half decent players if you lose your flak base before you get armor it's pretty much gg.

In a game with decent players the okw player wouldnt put their flak in a place the enemy can easily destroy it.