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But COH isn't an authentic franchise, its seen many non authentic moves and they've typically been to the benefit of creating an interesting German faction. Some on the units you've mentioned the difference of their appearance would have been German old men and boys commitment to resist long enough for their arrival such as the IS3 so fairly authentic. Whereas no matter how long they resisted the E100 and Maus had no serial production factories ready to begin production. IS3 was a decent option for a Soviet Call in they could have gone for that. Also if certain German fortifications weren't abandoned or in ruin I'm sure you very well would have seen papa Joe call in the big boys that were purpose built to deal with them, just turned out the man had run.
Again it is pretty mega gatekeeping to be hung up on this one piece of fiction now when we've had so many works of fiction that allowed a competent 44-45 German faction. Of course that's because this is a game not a history lecture as that one is one sided, they lost.
Id be curious how this discussion would have gone if from the get go the Black Prince hadn't been added but instead there was an ME 262 strafe, or a Bismarck bombardment. Curious if the resistance camp would have been as strong. With the previous titles records of complaints against the over representation of little seen Axis toys or fictional depictions of thier abilities I'm going to say little to none. |
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Tactical V1 Fiction + Combat capable Sturmtiger + Invincible Stuka Fuel Drop + Stock Sturmtigers (Original OKW) + Stock King Tigers + Complete wreck recovery via Bergetiger + Luftwaffe existing post Bodenplatte = Black Prince Fiction (this is one very lopsided equation to call it equal)
Not really a baseless thing, Relic doesn't care about numbers, Historical timelines, success records or whether something occurred at all. Thankfully they didn't as we have all these cool units in the game and its interesting. |
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If life and death at company level is your concern, V1 flying bombs never saw deployment against company level units so the fiction of never happened context is different for Black prince somehow? |
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Its quite the irony to call this a work of fiction when we have re-written history in COH before. Sturmtigers have no success record in offensive combat yet in COH that is very different. There is no record of a V1 fired on a small unit mass like a company. The IR rifle scopes saw a deployment so limited it would have only equipped a battalion and they are integrated into the game.
So again numbers and historical weight have always taken a back seat in COH. The Black Prince isn't very out worldly when in the context of Relics unit inclusions. This really does look like gatekeeping and I'm glad to see there's people in the keep it camp in decent numbers. Greyshots new video is also worth a look. |
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I take comfort in the knowledge that with IR halftracks, IR Rifles that saw limited use and Sturmtigers that have a documented record of being unable to reliably target large structures we didn't need to have historical accuracy police in the COH community. They have however arrived with the Black Prince somehow and that smacks of a bit of irony. Stock King tigers, Invincible Stuka aircraft technology hell on release stock Sturmtigers. These all added up to create interesting German factions across two game as their real world army depiction would be very, horse oriented.
I'm also glad we aren't discussing numbers here as they indeed don't really matter and Relic has lent their ear to the numbers don't matter idea across the franchise history.
If historical accuracy police had existed in COH we would never have had tactically deployed v1 rockets. I mean who knew that they ran out and built the launch ramp so quickly you could launch a V1 on an opponents army that had moved into a new location. These were awesome highly inaccurate moments that i loved about COH, v1 was boss. CoH 2 also saw the removal of the limit of one King Tiger per match which was a ridiculous notion, they are much better represented as a stock unit as they add big flavor.
The Black Prince is simply joining a the COH franchise because its probably pretty boss and fun as all the above items did, regardless of numbers or historical accuracy. |
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If vampire halftrack stealing resources via the New York stock exchange, Invincible Stukas and Bergetigers recovering total wrecks in 1-2 minutes aren't historical fiction as well I don't know what is by your gate keeping standards. There's been some pretty historical fiction moves in this game plenty of times. Again this is totally gatekeeping on a funny level. I mean you have air support post Bodenplatte for the Germans in the West, fiction.
Unit has been part of the design process and is meant to take part in their product.
The name calling is pretty top notch funny though seriously this is a discussion place not a playground in grade school. |
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I'm pointing out that any argument of historical accuracy was out the window long ago but they do stay within reason. The Black prince isnt very outlandish and if they have spent 3+ years working on it, its going to have a balanced place in the game.
I don't see why the gatekeeping was not in place for IR technology and the vampire halftrack etc and for this its suddenly outrageous. I hope relic has the sense to keep going with the unit in place, its not going to destroy the entire franchise. |
They themselves said that they want historicity and authenticity, and they themselves add to the game a non-authentic Black Prince prototype from 1945 to 1942 in Africa. If you want the Black Prince refrain from talking about historicity and authenticity, we've already seen the price of promises in CoH2 campaigns.
I don't see how they've ever achieved much historical accuracy if you consider the vehicles present in COH 1 or 2 in the respective time periods.
I would definitely say that Relic has shown there is a caveat to how they abide historical accuracy to create an interesting product. That's why we have flame hetzers, ostwinds, 1945 fuel drops from invincible stukas and stock King Tigers and IR halftracks. |
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My post was pointing out the futility of the numbers argument in the first place. that is why we did get a King Tiger accessible to every OKW player and a Luftwaffe that exists post Bodenplatte. Again playing a dads army and boy scout 45 Germany wouldn't be fun so they bolstered them to make an interesting product.
The point stands that in the process of making their titles Relic doesn't need to gate keep historical accuracy as they've done so to the games benefit and it can be said that it has been a hot button to add some fairly rare and typically German units as they did indeed struggle with hardware issues as you graciously pointed out.
This isn't about Election issue, political numbers, good or evil either.
To return to the point we've had Relic add units they see fit to add excitement to the game rather than their historical weight, Black prince is welcome. They've designed the product around it and I don't think they need to abide some gatekeepers quoting numbers.
We have had fictional vehicles and items before, Invincible stukas, vampire halftracks teleporting resources off an opponent, distributed IR sighted rifles and a stock IR halftrack that are integrated into the tactical structure as if the troops would know how to use them. So I welcome the Black Princes fictional status if they've put in the work to add it. |
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Based, you know the answer to your own question on the Ratte, and relic knows their answer as well on that vehicle but I mean reach out to them on Twitter and ask.
As for this post on politics and trying to swing the world had dictatorships, these ones were bad too German army was effective blah blah blah wasn't aware we were suddenly discussing that here. Post 85 is in the wrong thread that's for sure
But ill humor your aspect of the "hardware" part, COH franchise the German factions have never been left wanting for cool not so historical toys.
So I reiterate my point as is being done so by a few people now, COH as a franchise isn't historically accurate.
We have a Luftwaffe that exists post Bodenplatte, we've had halftracks that set up some kind of New York stock exchange and steal US currency, we have King tigers possible in every single OKW match. We have invincible Stukas dropping supply crates on natural fuel points we have ostwinds, wirblewinds, flame hetzers and sturmtigers available in amazing numbers. Tactically deployed V1s also come to mind.
but oh no there's a thic allied boy with a gun that's bigger than normal is being given to the allied faction so its all broken now. Again I see the detractors as gate keepers to some skewed ideal of "realism" in COH and I personally see it as a hard to make albeit entertaining to watch argument.
Conclusion, Relic is steering their product don't its normal path. Some units and abilities represent the real history very poorly but its entertaining to have them and use them. |
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