It has nothing to do with the Stug, TWP in general is broken. If a Pak shoots a TWP at you, you have to sit there and eat the damage. Shooting at the unit that TWPed you isn't counterplay either. Counterplay is a way to dodge or negate the effects of an ability. TWP is shot from the fog of war, has 100% pen and 100% accuracy, so it cannot be dodged. Tank smoke doesn't exist for allies, so it cannot be negated either. This is why its such a silly and over the top ability, especially when viewed as the counterpart to "tracking".
Well I'm sorry, but the way discution went I was sure that it was about TWP being OP on Stugs only. For packs I believe it's even worst, for they cannot defend themselves not even from what they are supposed to counter anymore, due to latest nerfs from 2 patches ago. But this I guess we can say about ZIs also, though ZIS is slightly more advantaged due to bigger crew.
Anyway, it's clear for me now that we cannot agree related to TWP and that's ok.
Godamit man, I just lost my super fantastic reply to your post , it was to much and don't have time to type it again.
Anyway, I appreciate that we can have a discution without failing into personal attacks that this forum is filled with. And no, I am not defending it because it's an Axis ability, but because it is counterable in the same way SU-85 or other TDs abilities are counterable so I see no big difference between them. If a SU-85 shots at my tank from FOW using focused vision, I can reply with a PAK next to my tank. If a Stug shots from afar using TWP, I can reply with a Zis next to my T34. And Zis will hurt the Stug at least as much Pak will hurt the SU-85..... anyway, I regret I lost my reply .
JohnnyB best advice: pick counter-attack doctrine, you'll see it counters perfectly CAS and don't forget to build tanks!! (what an obvious advice).
Hey Johnny, by the way, did you know you can not convert your fuel and get tanks as well with CAS?
Yes, and you will fail. You abuse of conversion and are efficient, or you try to make everything and fail. That is the way it works. Not that you would know it.
CAS Axis Cmrd is by far the best cmrd for team games (3vs3 or 4vs4)
It's make winning as axis a piece of cake.
Nothing can really counter it and it can help anywhere on the battle field.
Double shreck pzgrenadiers rulez + mg42 grenadiers with rifle nades will make capturing any ground easy.
You have enough munition to make all the bunkers you want
You have all the munition you need to place dirty minefields at critical place.
You can have evenly have some tanks : 2 Pz4 + 1 Ostwind for support.
You don't need to have the best teammates to win.
You don't need to make compromises to have any of the stuff above.
By far the best cmdr for team play. Great synergy, great efficiency, great fun bombing allies tank to dust or strafing infantry before nading them to hell.
Allies need a winner like that to even the playing field. (Plz Relic)
Plz can you tell me what you do as allies to win vs them ? (3vs3+)
I will take all ideas.
Thank you in advance.
As CAS You will have all the munition you want, you can mine, build bunkers, build alot of infantry and equip them properly, air off-maps, all the tanks you want... oh wait.
On a more serious note. Counters:
1. build tanks;
2. build 120s /artilery / katiushas, whatever ballistic weapon you want;
3. plant mines and/or demo charges;
4. build AA;
5. any 2 points from above used together.
As long as allied have their cheesee strategies, CAS should exist too. Now you can / thread
P.S. I am just curious, did you ever use CAS? Like, even once?
Edit: I can bet all my money that after CAS will be nerfed - and it will - the next targeted ostheer commander will be assault support. That strafing run has staying power it does not take 2 seconds like in CAS case and the allied blobbers will be so unhappy.
No, i am not saying that the stug is not meant to kill tanks. You don't need to disable a tank to keep it at long range. Turretless TDs have done quite well without TWP up to now. The SU85, JP4, and current SU76 all do their job somehow without access to TWP. Closing in is the counter to TDs, but the stug is not only the cheapest td, but it is also the only TD that can stun a charging tank and retreat, even when caught out of position.
Thge JP4, SU-85 are better in every way. Each one has its ability. Half map view for SU-85, requiring no veterancy and being free to use. Plus tracking. JP4 scales verry well like any other OKW unit, and it is enough powerfull not to benefit from any "ability" provided by veterancy. Still, it has one: cautious movement. Don't even try to simplify things to "oh, the Su-85 and JP4 have no TWP and they are doing just fine". It'sno comparison between stug and these 2. WTF Stug cannot spot for itself.
Also, how are you comparing a 50 range, 80 dmg, 400 hp unit to the stugg? I've already showed you how stuart stun rounds deal less damage, have less of an impact, and have clear counterplay. A single grensquad on the stugs flank can snare the stuart. A rifle squad cannot snare a stug, and the stug can do its ability from out of the fog of war.
Each unit, the Stug and the Stuart, are operating at their level. Stuart can use its ability and kill a Puma. Stug can use its ability and kill a T34/85. Both having the same chance to kill the enemy unit from examples, an enemy unit which is STRONGER then they are. Meanwhile please consider what is the Ostheer tech tree like and what costs it implies.
You are still attempting to derail/ redirect the conversation in the wrong direction. I will ask you again:
Why is TWP is required ability, and if it is, how is it currently balanced?
How am I trying to derail when I am showing you that a similar ability exists on other allied unit and that every tank destroyer has its specific ability. Derailing does not mean seeing the whole picture, as you 80% of people here on forums are not. You are deliberately narrowing your vision - like SU-85 does - pointing in on one unit, not considering why a specific feature exists in the whole meta context. You cannot analyze one unit / ability extracting it from context. One could say: "it's not enough that shock trops squad has 6 people, armor and grenades? Why in the world do they need a smoke grenade too? Isn't that OP?" How this would sound? A little stupid? Maybe. So it's this TWP whining.
Unfortunatly, you forget to take several things into consideration. The stuart ability requires the tank in question to be slugging it out within its own range.
The stuart has a range of 40 I believe, which puts it in the range of the unit it is shooting at. The Stuarts ability also does not increase pen, which means that the stuart can not frontaly engage heavier vehicles. This leaves the stuart with light vehicles to counter.
The stuart deals 80 dmg per shot, with 3 shots (240dmg). The stun is applied on pen, but stuart stun lasts for a lot shorter of a time frame with each shot than other stuns. This means that stuart stun will heavily damage a flack ht (which has counterplay in terms of smoke), and half kill the puma and (assuming all rounds hit, which they often don't ). The puma is a scout unit, which gives it the ability to see the stuart coming, and thus not only evade it, but also deal heavy damage to it from range (Puma requires 3 hits to kill stuart). The puma can also smoke to evade.
I don't really see where you are going with this. Stuart and puma are both 70 fu AT platforms. The puma has the advantage at all times. Even if the puma is caught and stunned, the stuart still has to seal the deal with 2 extra shots. If you are caught by a stuart, you saw him coming, got a shot on him, didn't move, and thus have Noone to blame but yourself. TWP on the other hand comes from long range AT platforms that can fire from offscreen. TWP also increases pen, and deals 2-4x the damage.
And finally, even if the stuart ability was OP, that would not be a reason to consider TWP balanced. One OP ability does not excuse another. Now, do you have any actual arguments as to why TWP is balanced?
Stuart meanwhile has a turret which stug doesn't have. The latest Stug buffs don't help if it can't disable somehow the enemy tank from afar. Closing in to a Stug = dead Stug in any given situation without exception. So the "tank destroyer" can't actualy kill tanks if it can't keep them in its range and in its front.
If you want to say that Stug is not supposed to kill tanks but only damage them, then ok, TWP must be gone. But I doubt that.
My point is having such ability on an allied vehicle = oK. Have it on an Axis vehicle = oP. Not to mention that stuart is a turreted vehicle, that can stun, then get behind the stunned target.
Doesn't Stuart have the same ability that allows this tank to stun then kill the vehicle by itself? And, like in Stug's case, a more powerful vehicle than itself: Puma. Is that OP?
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, it was to much and don't have time to type it again.
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_Hiena_
xingyuguan
Relic Entertainment
