Stug G vs. Soviet and Allied armor

How useful is INFANTRY TRACKING on SU-76 and 85 against armor again?

Vet ability doesn't have to be IWIN in combat, doesn't even have to be combat related at all *cough* capture points *cough*.

I think we would all prefer vet abilities to be relatively useful instead of being infantry tracking, trip wire flare, or capture point grade trash.

Well, that's what I'm talking about - let's not repeat Infantry Tracking mistakes again.
Let it be Concrete-piercing round or something like that. I mean some situational ability, not no-brainer "I-disable-your-tank-haha-run-or-die-now".

Fair enough, but that sounds like a general vet1 overhaul is needed as axis armor is unquestionably advantaged in this regard.

In this case, you shouldn't be using turretless units by themselves, and their abilities shouldnt allow them to single handedly wreck the units they will typically be fighting, with no micro required. The abilities should also have counterplay of some type. Otherwise, you give one faction an unfair advantage, and force the other to be exceedingly careful.

The puma ability can be countered by retreating or aiming the turret at the enemy manually. Blenkorpers can be dodged. Blitzing tanks can be blocked/ chased/ engine critted. Smoke can be attack grounded. HVAP units can be retreated from.

TWP lets a single AT weapon (stug/pak40) to not only deal heavy damage, but to do so in a way that has no counterplay. If a vehicle is stunned, it has no chance to flee until the ability runs out. This means that a single stug/ pak40 can fire twice with no retaliation, halving the life total of a medium tank. It also means that heavy AT sources like the elephant can wipe a medium tank with no counterplay. When TWP is used in conjunction with multiple AT sources, it allows for easy installation gibs, as well as chained stunning.

TWP also requires minimal micro to pull off. For a pak, merely press the ability. For an elephant/stug, press a button then select a target.

There is no way to excuse TWP as an okay ability. It is simply far too powerful and has 0 counterplay besides being ultra defensive (which allied factions are terrible at). It unfairly punishes allied players for building medium tanks.

These are all good points. You also forgot to mention TWP allows the Stug to make a decision. If TWP would allow it to win the engagement it stays and kills the target, if it would normally lose it just retreats and saves itself. Meanwhile, as you pointed out, the Allied player just sits and waits for the ability to cool off.

TWP is too powerful and uninteresting. I like the new Stug without it though, feels really useful and is now almost a must have for Ost.

Or you can attack tank from the side in the first place as tanks are not deployed and used like creeps in MOBAs.

Oh, yeah, of course, flanking with the stug, why didn't I think sooner?!

Are you people crazy? Why in the world you wanna eliminate TWP?

Are you people crazy? Why in the world you wanna eliminate TWP?

Because, from one of my earlier posts: Show Spoiler

Oh, yeah, of course, flanking with the stug, why didn't I think sooner?!

Are you people crazy? Why in the world you wanna eliminate TWP?

Read last few pages in this topic?

Because, from one of my earlier posts: Show Spoiler

Doesn't Stuart have the same ability that allows this tank to stun then kill the vehicle by itself? And, like in Stug's case, a more powerful vehicle than itself: Puma. Is that OP?

Doesn't Stuart have the same ability that allows this tank to stun then kill the vehicle by itself? And, like in Stug's case, a more powerful vehicle than itself: Puma. Is that OP?

Look, remove it from Stuart as well if you want.

Look, remove it from Stuart as well if you want.

My point is having such ability on an allied vehicle = oK. Have it on an Axis vehicle = oP. Not to mention that stuart is a turreted vehicle, that can stun, then get behind the stunned target.

Doesn't Stuart have the same ability that allows this tank to stun then kill the vehicle by itself? And, like in Stug's case, a more powerful vehicle than itself: Puma. Is that OP?

Unfortunatly, you forget to take several things into consideration. The stuart ability requires the tank in question to be slugging it out within its own range.

The stuart has a range of 40 I believe, which puts it in the range of the unit it is shooting at. The Stuarts ability also does not increase pen, which means that the stuart can not frontaly engage heavier vehicles. This leaves the stuart with light vehicles to counter.

The stuart deals 80 dmg per shot, with 3 shots (240dmg). The stun is applied on pen, but stuart stun lasts for a lot shorter of a time frame with each shot than other stuns. This means that stuart stun will heavily damage a flack ht (which has counterplay in terms of smoke), and half kill the puma (assuming all rounds hit, which they often don't ). The puma is a scout unit, which gives it the ability to see the stuart coming, and thus not only evade it, but also deal heavy damage to it from range (Puma requires 3 hits to kill stuart). The puma can also smoke to evade.

I don't really see where you are going with this. Stuart and puma are both 70 fu AT platforms. The puma has the advantage at all times. Even if the puma is caught and stunned, the stuart still has to seal the deal with 2 extra shots. If you are caught by a stuart, you saw him coming, got a shot on him, didn't move, and thus have Noone to blame but yourself. TWP on the other hand comes from long range AT platforms that can fire from offscreen. TWP also increases pen, and deals 2-4x the damage.

And finally, even if the stuart ability was OP, that would not be a reason to consider TWP balanced. One OP ability does not excuse another. Now, do you have any actual arguments as to why TWP is balanced?

Unfortunatly, you forget to take several things into consideration. The stuart ability requires the tank in question to be slugging it out within its own range.

The stuart has a range of 40 I believe, which puts it in the range of the unit it is shooting at. The Stuarts ability also does not increase pen, which means that the stuart can not frontaly engage heavier vehicles. This leaves the stuart with light vehicles to counter.

The stuart deals 80 dmg per shot, with 3 shots (240dmg). The stun is applied on pen, but stuart stun lasts for a lot shorter of a time frame with each shot than other stuns. This means that stuart stun will heavily damage a flack ht (which has counterplay in terms of smoke), and half kill the puma and (assuming all rounds hit, which they often don't ). The puma is a scout unit, which gives it the ability to see the stuart coming, and thus not only evade it, but also deal heavy damage to it from range (Puma requires 3 hits to kill stuart). The puma can also smoke to evade.

I don't really see where you are going with this. Stuart and puma are both 70 fu AT platforms. The puma has the advantage at all times. Even if the puma is caught and stunned, the stuart still has to seal the deal with 2 extra shots. If you are caught by a stuart, you saw him coming, got a shot on him, didn't move, and thus have Noone to blame but yourself. TWP on the other hand comes from long range AT platforms that can fire from offscreen. TWP also increases pen, and deals 2-4x the damage.

And finally, even if the stuart ability was OP, that would not be a reason to consider TWP balanced. One OP ability does not excuse another. Now, do you have any actual arguments as to why TWP is balanced?

Stuart meanwhile has a turret which stug doesn't have. The latest Stug buffs don't help if it can't disable somehow the enemy tank from afar. Closing in to a Stug = dead Stug in any given situation without exception. So the "tank destroyer" can't actualy kill tanks if it can't keep them in its range and in its front.

If you want to say that Stug is not supposed to kill tanks but only damage them, then ok, TWP must be gone. But I doubt that.

Stug is turetless, its job is hold medium armor of bay and damage it but not destroy it completely alone. You need pak to cover it and panzer 4 to kill fleing allied tank.Stug sould kill allied armor only when oponent overextend it and it is suposed to do this only.
Wehrmacht is having many other abilities to stop enemy tanks (teller mine, riegel mine , faust ) . And then is here TWP that is even more powerful than faust before patch because it stop tank for 3 second , not just slow it.

TWP is bad because all you need is stug to kill enemy armor , you dont need any mine to plant , no more sources of at like pak to finish allied armor , you dont need to cover you tank with grens etc.


I want to see how woul everybody be blaming this if it was su 85 ability or su 76 ability.

It is even stronger when we count squishy allied medium tanks (t 34 / 76 , sherman , if you hit jacson , bye bye jackie).

I know it is your only hope agains t34/85 swarm but i think we need to LIMIT medium call ins to 2 AT TIME , not making OP axis thinks to balance OP allies thinks.

Stuart meanwhile has a turret which stug doesn't have. The latest Stug buffs don't help if it can't disable somehow the enemy tank from afar. Closing in to a Stug = dead Stug in any given situation without exception. So the "tank destroyer" can't actualy kill tanks if it can't keep them in its range and in its front.

If you want to say that Stug is not supposed to kill tanks but only damage them, then ok, TWP must be gone. But I doubt that.

No, i am not saying that the stug is not meant to kill tanks. You don't need to disable a tank to keep it at long range. Turretless TDs have done quite well without TWP up to now. The SU85, JP4, and current SU76 all do their job somehow without access to TWP. Closing in is the counter to TDs, but the stug is not only the cheapest td, but it is also the only TD that can stun a charging tank and retreat, even when caught out of position.

Also, how are you comparing a 50 range, 80 dmg, 400 hp unit to the stugg? I've already showed you how stuart stun rounds deal less damage, have less of an impact, and have clear counterplay. A single grensquad on the stugs flank can snare the stuart. A rifle squad cannot snare a stug, and the stug can do its ability from out of the fog of war.

You are still attempting to derail/ redirect the conversation in the wrong direction. I will ask you again:

Why is TWP is required ability, and if it is, how is it currently balanced?

Doesn't Stuart have the same ability that allows this tank to stun then kill the vehicle by itself? And, like in Stug's case, a more powerful vehicle than itself: Puma. Is that OP?

Yes, if the target of the Stuart is Luchs at best.
Otherwise its just limitation of vision.

It also isn't fire and forget ability, it have duration, during which you need to keep close to the target, opponent can still use ISURVIVE smoke while stunned and you need to sit on rear armor at point blank of anything heavier then Luchs for it to be effective in any way.

Make TWP as effective as stuart shell shock and we'll have balanced ability.

If target weak point was removed, they might aswell give the StuG 60 range. I always saw that ability as a compensation for not being able to fight on long/ td distances.

If target weak point was removed, they might aswell give the StuG 60 range. I always saw that ability as a compensation for not being able to fight on long/ td distances.

The compensation is the fact that the stugg is only 90 fu, and also the fact that the stugg can kill infantry quite well at closer ranges.

The cheapest 60 range TD with 160 dmg is the su85, at 120fu.

SU-76 have 60 range.

Just saying.

also the fact that the stugg can kill infantry quite well at closer ranges.

FYI that's a bug because Relic cannot into Q&A so they have the StuG III's main gun .6 accuracy at close range instead of .06 or .006 or w/e

Are you people crazy? Why in the world you wanna eliminate TWP?

because it was two years in a "right spot" and now it is OP
People need something to bitching about

Yes, if the target of the Stuart is Luchs at best.
Otherwise its just limitation of vision.

It also isn't fire and forget ability, it have duration, during which you need to keep close to the target, opponent can still use ISURVIVE smoke while stunned and you need to sit on rear armor at point blank of anything heavier then Luchs for it to be effective in any way.

Make TWP as effective as stuart shell shock and we'll have balanced ability.

Doesn't the stuarts stun still allow them to move though? I thought it only stopped them from firing and blocked sight?