This thread is meant to address what we, darkfireslide and Kothre, perceive to be a problem with the Soviets’ method of teching to tanks. This thread is not meant to discuss the nuances of each individual unit’s balance predicament(s), but rather the core design of the Soviet faction. In the current meta, particularly due to the introduction of Oberkommando West, the Soviets have become even more reliant on particular doctrines than they used to in order to defeat German forces. Currently, the meta revolves around constructing a Support Kompanaya to produce a large quantity of Maxims, perhaps the only non-doctrinal infantry unit that can handle early-game OKW pushes (though, given typical Wehrmacht meta, this is often true for them as well).
Following this, the most vital unit in the fight against OKW are Shock Troops, one of a handful of Soviet units that actually possess automatic weapons and can deal with Sturmpioneers and the rest of OKW's early-game infantry blob. Most non-doctrinal Soviet units, including Conscripts, Scout Cars, Penal Battalions, and the 82mm mortar, even when micro'd correctly and positioned perfectly, often underwhelm in raw damage output and versatility. As a result, a Soviet player generally relies on a commander with Shock Troop or Guards in his arsenal. These doctrines generally also come with tank call-ins, which serve to invalidate the other half of the Soviets' non-doctrinal troops because of prohibitive tank building costs. The combination of shock troops, and/or guards, and heavy tanks often pigeonholes Soviet players into only using the handful of doctrines since only a handful of them have essential Soviet units. Without this combination of units, Soviet players are essentially defenseless against the OKW forces in the majority of situations. They also invalidate more than half of the Soviets' commanders, because a lack of heavy tank call-ins forces players to buy tank buildings that offer mediocre at best vehicles.
The current Soviet commanders render the tank buildings almost worthless due to the fast rise of CP's mid-match. By the time you would build the tank building (either/or) to produce mediocre units (such as the T-70 and SU-76), you most likely already have the CP's to call-in tanks such as T-34/85's, KV-8's, IS-2's, and so on for other commanders with tank call-ins. It is worth noting that these call-ins have no production time, allowing for, especially in the case of t-34/85's, a good grouping upon recruitment. As a result, teching up as the Soviets is generally an inferior strategic option for Soviet commanders. These doctrines allow for victory in multiplayer, but leaves the majority of non-doctrinal Soviet troops, especially tanks, invalid and inferior choices overall.
Darkfireslide’s proposal- a cost reduction!
I propose that the tank tech costs for Soviet tanks be reduced. 120 fuel is an extremely prohibitive cost, especially given how mediocre the units in the buildings actually are. For example, it is cheaper to build a StuG III in terms of fuel than it is to build an SU-76, given the cost of tech buildings. However, the StuG III is an effective assault gun, capable of killing both tanks and infantry, whilst the SU-76 has an extremely unreliable anti-infantry barrage and has so little health that any kind of anti-tank response generally knocks them out shortly. While StuG's are not particularly durable themselves, they are a much more potent tank in the same role for essentially the same price as the SU-76. But as we said earlier, this thread is not about individual unit balance, so the performance of these two units side by side is not the issue, but rather the tiers they are in. Relic has gone on record saying that they want Soviets to have to make a choice when it comes to their tech buildings, which is understandable since it helps differentiate them from the Wehrmacht, but given the current meta, the best choice is to choose neither.
The Wehrmacht tech tiers allow for much more versatility, whilst the Soviet tech tiers pigeonhole the player into either anti-infantry or anti-tank. However, doctrinal units are usually capable of both roles for roughly the same price. The question lingers: Why build Soviet tech tiers at all, given the strength of doctrinal commanders? Rather than buff Soviet units, I propose that tech tiers be made cheaper to make these units more viable given their current strength. With a price reduction to the tech tiers, Soviet players could more comfortably produce mid-game vehicles that before were prohibitively expensive given their timing and individual unit capabilities. However, a careful look at Soviet units and tech placement should also be carefully evaluated in order to make more strategies viable for this faction. Even in the event of a tank rush, OKW and the Wehrmacht are perfectly capable of dealing with mid-game tanks, whether with Schrecks, Raketenwerfers, or Paks. As for earlier Katyushas, well, perhaps this will encourage the use of lighter units in either Axis army.
Kothre’s proposal- an overhaul!
My solution is bolder than darkfireslide’s. This is of course a design structure change rather than balance of individual units. I am aware that such a massive overhaul is unlikely to happen, but I am nonetheless going to offer my take on the Soviet forces as if I were the lead designer. My cohort here and I had a minute 2v2 match in which I called in three IS-2’s (at the same time!- it was epic) because I could skip spending fuel on overpriced tank buildings, which just speaks volumes to the current design of the faction. First, I would relegate the T34/85 (as an upgrade to the T34/76) and IS-2 and/or KV-1 to the standard Soviet arsenal, whilst leaving specialized tanks like the ISU-152 or KV-8 tied to specific commanders. I am aware Relic wants a tech choice to be made in the Soviet faction, but I’d rather see a progression from light to medium to heavy tank(s). I still feel like it would differentiate them from the Ostheer enough for them to feel interesting, because Soviet light vehicles (notably the SU-76) function rather differently than their Ostheer counterparts. I would like to see the SU-76 moved to the first tank building so that it has the halftrack, T-70, and the SU-76, then decrease the price of that tier accordingly.
The second building would then contain the T34/76, the SU-85, and the Katyusha by default. The T34/85’s should then have a similar upgrade to the American Sherman’s up-gun upgrade from vCoH that is acquired in that tank building. Alternatively, make it a munitions upgrade once the 76’s are out, even if they do remain attached to a doctrine. There would then be another upgrade within that building, similar to the Panzer Elite’s tiering system, that would unlock the IS-2. I feel the IS-2 is a staple unit of the Soviet forces, and would like to see incorporated more centrally into their playe a la the Oberkommando’s King Tiger. I’m not going to be bold enough to attach a number to it now, but I’d like to see it come out at roughly the same time or slightly later than it does to unlock the 11 CPs it take to unlock it now, but only if the Soviet player has been very conservative with fuel. Basically, it’s a tank that you’d get once in a good game, but not (in an average-timed game) something you could get if you were spamming T34’s. The hope of this design is both to make doctrines that do not include the T34/85’s and IS-2’s viable, as well as to encourage players to actually buy tech buildings that are currently obsolete when call-ins are so much more cost-effective. Some commanders would obviously have to be adjusted, but that’s of an obstacle now that War Spoils exists, so people won’t feel as ripped off about something they paid for changing.
TL;DR Restructure Soviet vehicle tiers from light to heavy tanks, including the T34/85’s and the IS-2, so that players aren’t forced to choose between doctrinal units and two worthless buildings. Arguably the best unit currently from either building is the katyusha, and that’s just odd.
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