Reasons to build Soviet T4?

I am having a really hard time with the new state of balance for the Soviets.

On the one hand we have very strong and reliable call ins, on the other hand the tier system is completely fucked.

Against OKW I am literally going T1-->T2 then raping them with combined sniper maxim combos till tank call in arrives.

Against Ostheer I am usually going T2-->T3 then playing a very balanced game in terms of AT guns and tank call ins to counter their heavies.

So where does that leave T4?

I mean lets look at what you get for all the fuel and teching:

SU76: I mean wow Relic. This unit has literally no purpose being in the highest Tier of the game let alone the game itself. In the past when it was dirt cheap and had a fairly useful arty ability it was at least tolerable. Now? I mean my god this thing has no HP, penetration, is turretless/slow, and the arty ability is completely laughable.

SU-85: Frontal armor nerf, mobility nerf, and now the pathing for this unit is seemingly complete borked, I can't see why anyone would want to spend the fuel. Compared to the Jadgpanther this thing just sucks. The problem is that you need to baby sit it all day long in order to ever see some use out of it, it's long range accuracy is what like 0.25? Trying to move this unit with the rest of your army usually results in it getting stuck somewhere or driving backwards into combat. I have a fairly good micro, but when 85% of that micro is going to try and get this unit to even face the goddamn enemies it's simply not worth it.

The lowliest tank in the game can circle strafe this lumbering lumox so I usually avoid it.

Katyusha: Ahhh the Kat. King for a week then nerfed to a position where now it suffers from no armor, penetration, damage,110s cooldown, and only moderate effectiveness at medium range. I find this unit can still punish blobs pretty well provided you have at least 2. However, the lengthy cool down combined with massive scatter means if the opening salvo misses then whoops your done for another 2 minutes. Unlike the wakling stuka which has a predetermined firing path, routinely wipes squads, and doesn't suffer from having to drive up to the enemies front door to be useful.

So really unless Relic releases another brilliant patch like the last one *sarcasm* I don't see the Soviet meta really changing. It drives me nuts that the tiering system is so horrible and broken, but I really don't see Relic doing much to address this anytime soon.

But of course maxim spam is still ridiculously strong... so I guess there's that.

Sometimes I find SU85 very, very useful. Against OST I almost always go for SU85. Of course, SU left alone is shit unit BUT if you combine it with Guards, it can be really deadly for every ost tank (get vet 3 and it will melt everything). And put mines od the sides!
But if you don't like doctrine with guards, stay away from T4.

Sometimes I find SU85 very, very useful. Against OST I almost always go for SU85. Of course, SU left alone is shit unit BUT if you combine it with Guards, it can be really deadly for every ost tank (get vet 3 and it will melt everything). And put mines od the sides!
But if you don't like doctrine with guards, stay away from T4.

I respect what you're saying and yes combined with guards SU85s can be pretty useful however most if not all ost players go elite troops. This means smoke discharges breaking snare instantly and vet 3 grens shredding your guards. I actually prefer a fast T34 to try and push them especially if they have been using that damn insta vet ability.

If you don't win early your fucked as the elite tiger is still almost instantly gg unless it's a 4 on 4.

Don't, never go T4, t4 = you lose.

Hi Burts

Can you expand a little,please?

I mean,we know the Katyusha has been re-nerfed, the SU76s work in blobs and the SU85 is no longer the strong-arm it was initially......but it may assist readers from the outside, to know why you post as assertively as you have done

Don't, never go T4, t4 = you lose.

had a 2v2 today. i went t4.

My vet 3 katyusha had +50 kills.
My su85 was vet3 too.

But yea, you are right i lost.


Because my mate went afk for the rest of the game.

Well, i was talking about 1V1. You need something to reliably kill infantry, because mid-late game you got no infantry that can stand up to LMG grens or obers or whatever axis infantry. So you got to have something to kill infantry. SU-76 is very unreliable, katyusha is a very risky move, and su-85 is useless on alot of maps, and even those open maps you just get utterly locked in because of good axis handheld AT and paks. So T3 is the best way to go. Or just wait for call ins. Soviet T4 is just simply not worth it at the moment.

Use the Katuysha in the last 10-5 minutes of the game where your enemy is desperate to capture VP's and will not go back even if you are barraging that VP. You will see tons of wipes, at least for me.

had a 2v2 today. i went t4.

My vet 3 katyusha had +50 kills.
My su85 was vet3 too.

But yea, you are right i lost.


Because my mate went afk for the rest of the game.

I feel for you.

The units in soviet T4 actually aren't bad, its just that in 1v1 t3 is more useful due to the design of the faction. And then people like to save fuel for super call in tanks in 2v2.

I agree, Soviet T4 is as useless as Ostheer T4.

Relic should revise the usefulness and cost of this tier en both factions, as T3 dominates absolutely in competitive play.

Some interesting ideas proposed were replacing T70 with S76, increasing SU85 frontal armor and fix pathing, or making T4 building cheaper if you have already T3...

Recently played quite a lot of 2v2 to evaluate that and I really have to say I cannot share those impressions.

Mixed teams on both sides, I was with Twister vs PQ and Breaking Brad I think. I went for T3 first and got several T34 while Twister went for Jacksons. This caused the Axis to massively ramp up their AT (more PaK40, a Jagdpanzer IV) to the point where the T34 were becoming useless. Switching to T4 to get a Katyusha (and later a second and a SU-85) allowed us to focus on their infantry and basically ignore the PaKs / Jagdpanzer. Since those lack offensive capabilities, they were basically dead weight. A bit later we actually started to play more aggressively, decrewing the PaKs and turning them to take out their trucks.

T4 is not that great in a 1v1 I feel, but in a 2v2 there are certainly ways for it to shine.

I agree, Soviet T4 is as useless as Ostheer T4.

Relic should revise the usefulness and cost of this tier en both factions, as T3 dominates absolutely in competitive play.

Some interesting ideas proposed were replacing T70 with S76, increasing SU85 frontal armor and fix pathing, or making T4 building cheaper if you have already T3...

Hmmm well either way the SU-76 is currently completely useless but having the T70 is T4 is definitely intriguing. It would give you a better reason to go T4 for the shock aspect of the T70 plus the occasional utility of the SU-85.

I think a pathing fix for the SU-85 and giving it a frontal armor boost would help its utility because right now it handles like a boat on land.

The problem is that you are forced to make a choice with T3 or T4 and frankly T3 better complements holding out for the tank call ins right now.

T4 is not that great in a 1v1 I feel, but in a 2v2 there are certainly ways for it to shine.

Hmmm well either way the SU-76 is currently completely useless but having the T70 is T4 is definitely intriguing. It would give you a better reason to go T4 for the shock aspect of the T70 plus the occasional utility of the SU-85.

I think a pathing fix for the SU-85 and giving it a frontal armor boost would help its utility because right now it handles like a boat on land.

Mostly this.

These are the same concerns my friend and I are having with the Soviets at the moment. After the katyusha re-nerf into nigh-uselessness, there just isn't a reason to build the building anymore. SU-76's have always been awful and the SU-85 is a shadow of its former self. Even tier 3 is questionable at times because of how good call-ins are, but at least the units in that building have uses.

I don't mean to thread-hijack by any means, but you ought to read our proposals here: http://www.coh2.org/topic/21363/kothre-and-darkfireslide-s-soviet-tiering-proposal/page/1#post_id191136

SU-85 is great vs Tiger.

save the fuel, drag out for a isu152, which overlaps both su85 and katyusha. also, isu152 has a much lower micro ceiling than kats+su85.

t4 has its uses, just that there are other units much more efficient and effective than the entire tier.

I think su-85 is still a reliable mobile AT, but not against Tiger.
I prefer T3 + call-ins any time.

maybe decrease the cost of T4. I think the way Axis are built, it is better to build T3 and press the attack instead of being more "defensive" with T4.

t4 has its uses, just that there are other units much more efficient and effective than the entire tier.

^Exactly.
It´s a matter of how bored you are of using the same commanders to be competitive