Kothre and darkfireslide's Soviet tiering proposal!

While we did forget to mention the 50 fuel that you start out with as the Soviets, it's worth noting that the units themselves in these tiers are not powerful enough to compensate for their cost. Why do Allied units have to be inherently worse than their German counterparts? Why can't Allied units be good? It makes no sense to me. Of course, with the recent Katyusha nerf, there's literally no reason to build tier 4 for the Soviets, so now tank call-ins are basically the Soviets' 1 saving grace in this quickly devolving game balance.

Uhm yes, i haven't checked but i think they both start with 10 fuel + "the price of T1". But even then it still cost more than Germans for less.
The units are not "less good" they are just different for the most part. The germans are kind of the space marines of CoH while the russians are more specialised with each units. But why you can't build any regular in the basic tree? that i don't know. As it was discussed in another thread they could change the Penals for regulars still with SVTs but with a more standard loadout. I still prefer T4 because you can get the biggest gun in the basic soviet arsenal... a wooping 85mm not on a turret, talk about a deal. Yes there was some sarcasm in there.

While we did forget to mention the 50 fuel that you start out with as the Soviets, it's worth noting that the units themselves in these tiers are not powerful enough to compensate for their cost. Why do Allied units have to be inherently worse than their German counterparts? Why can't Allied units be good? It makes no sense to me. Of course, with the recent Katyusha nerf, there's literally no reason to build tier 4 for the Soviets, so now tank call-ins are basically the Soviets' 1 saving grace in this quickly devolving game balance.

Hello, dark fire man, I agree with your tier proposal, however I have a few things I don't quite agree with. Mainly the IS-2 in T4. Personally, I think the IS-2 should remain doctrinal just as the Tiger should.

I do think the Soviets need a non-doctrinal heavy tank and instead of the IS-2 I think the KV-1 should be the one that fits quite well in the role.

On another note, I do agree that allied units shouldnt be inhenrently worse than german counter parts, but I think the problem there lies with Soviet Infantry design.

Hello, dark fire man, I agree with your tier proposal, however I have a few things I don't quite agree with. Mainly the IS-2 in T4. Personally, I think the IS-2 should remain doctrinal just as the Tiger should.

I do think the Soviets need a non-doctrinal heavy tank and instead of the IS-2 I think the KV-1 should be the one that fits quite well in the role.

On another note, I do agree that allied units shouldnt be inhenrently worse than german counter parts, but I think the problem there lies with Soviet Infantry design.

I can definitely agree with that. I've been having great luck using the KV-1, particularly against OKW. I'd be fine with the IS-2 remaining doctrinal if we got the KV-1 by default.

Hello, dark fire man, I agree with your tier proposal, however I have a few things I don't quite agree with. Mainly the IS-2 in T4. Personally, I think the IS-2 should remain doctrinal just as the Tiger should.

I do think the Soviets need a non-doctrinal heavy tank and instead of the IS-2 I think the KV-1 should be the one that fits quite well in the role.

On another note, I do agree that allied units shouldnt be inhenrently worse than german counter parts, but I think the problem there lies with Soviet Infantry design.

Yeah. I swear that Volks are tougher to kill than normal Grens, even if only because they have 5 men in a squad (which... why? I don't understand). I get that Soviet units are supposed to be weaker, but... then why do they cost almost the same? Why do MG34's cost 210 manpower? Why are Kubels immune to rifle rounds now?
We started this post because we want the Soviets to feel competitive again, but now they're talking about nerfing them because the only strategy that really works, especially in team games, is to spam Maxims, which is actually very easy to counter. Building only tier 2 as the Soviets and relying on call-ins is about the only reliable way to compete against OKW, which you will most likely be facing given the 80% Axis queue. And people whine that they're underpowered. It's ridiculous.

Yeah. I swear that Volks are tougher to kill than normal Grens, even if only because they have 5 men in a squad (which... why? I don't understand). I get that Soviet units are supposed to be weaker, but... then why do they cost almost the same? Why do MG34's cost 210 manpower? Why are Kubels immune to rifle rounds now?
We started this post because we want the Soviets to feel competitive again, but now they're talking about nerfing them because the only strategy that really works, especially in team games, is to spam Maxims, which is actually very easy to counter. Building only tier 2 as the Soviets and relying on call-ins is about the only reliable way to compete against OKW, which you will most likely be facing given the 80% Axis queue. And people whine that they're underpowered. It's ridiculous.

not to go off topic, but it is a shame when people call for maxim nerfs without compensating somewhere else. I think the true problem is not maxim strength (maybe they work too well..), but Soviet non-doctrinal infantry just plain suck. Relying on shocks and guards to be your core infantry stink because they are doctrinal

not to go off topic, but it is a shame when people call for maxim nerfs without compensating somewhere else. I think the true problem is not maxim strength (maybe they work too well..), but Soviet non-doctrinal infantry just plain suck. Relying on shocks and guards to be your core infantry stink because they are doctrinal

Agree, like someone said before;
Doctrinal infantry are meant to supplement your force but I see more people using them as their force.

One thing I always didn't understand, why should volksgrenadiers, grenadiers, osttruppen have different damage output? Wouldn't it make more sense if it the difference between them was accuracy instead of damage? Maybe Conscripts, Volks and osttruppen should have lower damage because the number of men (gameplay reason) but getting hit by a 7.92mm isn't really much different from getting hit by a 7.62 right? If the damage of conscripts, osttruppen were higher, then they would be more useful right?

(Im a 2vs2 player (-: )

In my opinion if the Sovjets have to make an early decision if they want to make AI or AT, this should be rewarded by making the Sovejt units (T3+T4) better in their role than the German ones and I think this is not the case and part of this problem.

There is no Sovjet T1-T4 it should more be like 2x T1,5 and 2x T3,5 + doctrinal "T4" Units.
While the German "T1" units are okay against OH and the "T2" maxime and ZIS are very good in their role. The "T3" and "T4" units are underperforming against the German ones. Because of the disadvantage of making a choice between AT and AI or having long range units or not T3,4 units need a performance buff in their role.

If the Tier cost are lower maybe the units will come to fast, so they have to cost more, and that would be an disadvantage if you need a 2nd one. Its always a mistake (...Axis players make) to add the Tier costs to the unit cost because only the first unit cost that much. (and you have the choice to build another one)

Sovejts don't have a commander "choice" anyway. The first Tier forces you into a commander
T1 >> guards, T2 >> Shocks...

I don't believe that relic will change the Tier units or add none doctrinal abilities. What Sovjets need are ("underperforming")T0 units that need either "T1 or T2" to compensate (like the T0 Raketenwerfer) the choice.

So what is my solution:

- Give Sovejts a possibility to go T1T2 without getting Tanks to late. (lower price if you have one)
- or make "specialized" units perform better in their role, so that Germans have to react. Enemy T3 build P4s you have pacs, enemy T4 build P4 you have pacs...

(-change the Tiers... switching T70 and Su76 ... give Cons an AT... make some T0 units like in Ostheer...)

Agree, like someone said before;
Doctrinal infantry are meant to supplement your force but I see more people using them as their force.

One thing I always didn't understand, why should volksgrenadiers, grenadiers, osttruppen have different damage output? Wouldn't it make more sense if it the difference between them was accuracy instead of damage? Maybe Conscripts, Volks and osttruppen should have lower damage because the number of men (gameplay reason) but getting hit by a 7.92mm isn't really much different from getting hit by a 7.62 right? If the damage of conscripts, osttruppen were higher, then they would be more useful right?

I thought that was the whole point of the Turning Point update a while back, when they added in increased weapon lethality. Now Oberkommando is here and the units are inherently tougher than any other faction's, which means, well... that infantry just run out in the open, ignoring the cover system entirely because weapons aren't lethal enough or punishing enough to OKW infantry, especially ones that aren't behind cover. Most Soviet players are opting out of using any conscripts, it seems, and rightly so, because without PPSh's they can't do anything versus OKW infantry. So instead we see Maxim spam, which Relic is now threatening to nerf, rather than looking at what provoked this meta in the first place. The high weapon lethality is what makes CoH so special, in my opinion, but now that OKW is here, smart play loses to blobs. It's disgraceful. If the damage were roughly the same, then yeah, they would be pretty useful, but given the low damage, low accuracy, and high health of their adversaries, conscripts are just worthless now. At least Grens are reasonable.

@NinjaWJ: That's the whole point of this proposal. We want the Soviets to have options, like building penal battalions, or SU-76's, rather than being commander-dependent.

@morgoe: Even if the Soviets did rush a T-34 at tier 3 because of a cheaper tech cost, it's not like OKW and the Ostheer don't have ways of beating it (especially OKW). Earlier T-34's/T-70's would certainly give blobbers something to think about.