Profile of The Silver Sage

Very well put. Would definitely benefit late game balance seeing has how prevalent the OKW and Pzrgren rocket upgrade it. I don't feel like a price change should happen nor should it be removed but you do point out an interesting problem. I never thought to look at the long range damage.

Now if only relic can look into the issue or confirm they are trying to resolve it.

I liked how in Coh1 the handheld AT was much less accurate at range, that may be one way to mitigate the impact of these weapons. I agree price change wouldn't do much to change it, one thing I did find strange is that 160 is basically the magic penetration value against allied vehicles if you look at their front armour.

PTRS vs. Axis vehicles

Damage: 40 Penetration: 100.0/85.0/70.0. Lets take the long range value as we did for the other two.

OST
Non-doc
Panzerwerfer: 20/10, HP:160, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
222: 9/4.5, HP:200, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
251: 9/4.5, HP:320, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Stug III G: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 10 hits to kill, 50% penetration, average 20 hits to kill
Ostwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 16 hits to kill, 64% penetration, average 25 hits to kill
Panzer IV: 180/90, HP:640, minimum 16 hits to kill, 39% penetration, average 42 hits to kill
Brummbar: 260/105, HP:800, minimum 20 hits to kill, 27% penetration, average 75 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 20 hits to kill, 22% penetration, average 91 hits to kill


Doctrinal
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 10 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 10 hits to kill
Stug III E: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 10 hits, penetration 50%, average 20 hits to kill
Tiger: 300/180, HP:1040, minimum 26 hits to kill, 23% penetration, average 114 hits to kill
Tiger ace: 300/180, HP:1280, minimum 32 hits to kill, 23% penetration, average 140 hits to kill
Elefant: 400/150, HP:1040, minimum 26 hits to kill, 17.5% penetration, average 149 hits to kill


OKW
non-doc
Kubel: 4/2, HP:190, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Flak halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Stuka: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 8 hits, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
IR halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Panzer 2 Luchs: 55/35, HP:400, minimum 10 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 10 hits to kill
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 10 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 10 hits to kill
Jagdpanzer IV: 230/80, HP:640, minimum 16 hits to kill, 30% penetration, average 54 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 20 hits to kill, 22% penetration, average 91 hits to kill
Sturmtiger: 220/110, HP:1280, minimum 32 hits to kill, 32% penetration, average 100 hits to kill
King tiger: 425/225, HP:1280, minimum 32 hits, 16% penetration, average 200 hits to kill

Doctrinal
OStwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 16 hits to kill, 64% penetration, average 25 hits to kill
Jagdtiger: 525/150, HP:1280, minimum 32 hits to kill, 13% penetration, average 247 hits to kill

So there you have it the PTRS and it's stats.
Looking at this I can see why late game is a problem for Allies. Much like the bazooka, the PTRS is only made for light vehicles with some ability against mediums. But as the game draws on more heavies hit the field and these weapons become much less useful as opposed to the schreck.

I've noticed that there seems to be quite a disparity in terms of infantry based anti-tank capabilities between the Allied and Axis factions. A lot of people have commented on the difficulties Allied players have when trying to take down Axis vehicles late game.

Now people talk about paks/zis/raketenwerfer/57 mm at gun this at gun that but I think the real problem is the huge usefulness of the ubiquitous panzerschreck (at least on OST side I have no problem with PG having this but for a core cheap infantry in the form of volks (OKW) it is turning the tank battle way in favour of axis by having 1 or 2 squads hanging around).

For those not interested in numbers the TLDR version of this is Axis infantry can scare off or kill Allied vehicles much more easily than Allied infantry can do the same to Axis tanks. I believe this is due to the panzerschreck performing as it does at long range.

So lets look at the statistics of the Panzerschreck vs. the Bazooka (taken from Coh2stats if these are wrong please correct me).

Panzerschreck penetration: 180/170/160 Damage: 120 Cost: 120 for 2 (OST), 90 for 1 (OKW)

Bazooka penetration: 130/120/110 Damage: 80 Cost: 60

We will be using the long range penetration value as I feel this is where the problem stems from.

List goes as follows: Unit name: front armour/rear armour, hit-points, Minimum hits to kill, chance to penetrate, average amount of hits to kill (Penetration+damage value vs. Armour+ hit-points)

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Panzerschreck vs Allied vehicles

Soviet vehicles;
Non-doc
Katyusha: 7/5, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
M3: 5.4/4.2, HP:200, minimum 2 hits to kill , 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
t70: 70/35, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
M5: 28.5/20, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
su76: 70/35, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
Su85: 140/70, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
t34/76: 150/75, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill

Something of note as to why I believe Soviets rely on call-in vehicles so much, even from furthest range all non-doc Soviet vehicles will always be penetrated by panzerschreck. Now lets look at doctrinal vehicles

Doctrinal
Soviet Sherman: 160/80, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
t34/85: 160/80, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 7 hits to kill
kv8: 240/145, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 67% penetration, average 11 hits to kill
kv1: 270/165, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 59% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
kv2: 300/180, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 53% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
isu 152: 310/155, HP:1040, minimum 9 hits to kill, 52% penetration, average 17 hits to kill
is2: 375/205, HP:1040, minimum 9 hits to kill, 43% penetration, average 21 hits to kill

So as you can see it is only doctrinal Soviet tanks that can even deflect a panzerschreck round from long range i.e. 160 penetration. I think this has a lot to do with why Soviets find non-doctrinal tanks so lacking.

Now lets look at the USF

USF vehicles;
Non-doc
Ambulance: 4/1.8, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
m20: 16/11, HP:240, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
AA halftrack: 15/10, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m21 mortar: 20/8.4, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m5 stuart: 80/50, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m8 scott: 70/50, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m36: 130/60, HP:480, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
m4 sherman: 160/80, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill

Again all USF non-doc Vehicles are 100% penetrated at long range. Late game this really shows as USF and I believe this may contribute to their late game problems.

Doctrinal
Dodge: 5.2/4, HP:180, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
Greyhound: 28.5/14.25, HP:240, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
Priest: 60/30, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m10: 120/57.5, HP:400, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Sherman bulldozer: 200/80, HP:720, 6 hits to kill, 80% penetration, average 8 shots to kill
Easy8: 215/95, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 74% penetration, average 9 hits to kill


Only Easy-8 and Bulldozer Sherman can deflect panzershcreck from long range, only 2 vehicles doctrinal/non-doctrinal included.

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Now lets look at bazooka vs. the Axis

Bazooka vs. Axis vehicles

OST
Non-doc
Panzerwerfer: 20/10, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
222: 9/4.5, HP:200, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
251: 9/4.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Stug III G: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 79% penetration, average 7 hits to kill
Ostwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Panzer IV: 180/90, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 61% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
Brummbar: 260/105, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 42% penetration, average 24 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 35% penetration, average 29 hits to kill

So you can see bazookas can deal with light vehicles well and medium vehicles to a much lesser extent.

Doctrinal
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Stug III E: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 5 hits, penetration 79%, average 7 hits to kill
Tiger: 300/180, HP:1040, minimum 13 hits to kill, 37% penetration, average 36 hits to kill
Tiger ace: 300/180, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 37% penetration, average 44 hits to kill
Elefant: 400/150, HP:1040, minimum 13 hits to kill, 27.5% penetration, average 48 hits to kill

And last but not least the OKW

OKW
non-doc
Kubel: 4/2, HP:190, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
Flak halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Stuka: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
IR halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Panzer 2 Luchs: 55/35, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Jagdpanzer IV: 230/80, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 48% penetration, average 17 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 35% penetration, average 29 hits to kill
Sturmtiger: 220/110, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 50% penetration, average 32 hits to kill
King tiger: 425/225, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits, 26% penetration, average 62 hits to kill

Doctrinal
OStwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Jagdtiger: 525/150, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 21% penetration, average 77 hits to kill
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Funny comparison
t70, su76, USF AA halftrack, stuart, scott and priest 3 hits to kill from schreck vs. Kubel 3 hits to kill
with bazooka. (Greyhound takes 2....)


In summary I think the long range values of the panzerschreck (Damage 120, Penetration: 160), give the Axis (more so OKW) too much of an advantage in the late game. All Soviet non-doctrinal vehicles and all but 2 of the USF vehicles will be 100% penetrated at max range, this may play a part as to why Soviet gameplay is dominated by call-ins (as well as the fuel disparity between call-ins and tier built tanks

I think people are looking at this from the wrong angle. It isn't that OKW are getting too much ammunition (I thought at 1 point they were), it's that they don't pay for a lot of their infantry based heavy weapons.
Besides the panzershrek the only muni cost OKW have is for mines/sweepers/grenades/off map arty etc. Think about it, no upgrade cost for Obers, Fallschirm, JLI etc. Imagine if you could get doctrinal M1919s as USF without needing to pay 70 muni a pop, but instead it cost 120 MP. Rifles would be spamming grenades and there would be a lot more anti-tank mines from m20 around.

Soviet Industry, aka I'm sitting on 300 fuel, but I have no manpower for my infantry, and I have no manpower for my tanks!

Soviet Industry stopped being good when the manpower cost of vehicles was jacked up. Now the manpower penalty limits tank building just like fuel used to, and you end up playing the same game with less infantry.

Yeah I never understood why Relic didn't adjust this after the changes to Soviet armour prices. The increased MP cost of vehicles leaves you very low on MP for reinforcing or replacing squads. I believe that you are meant to rush t3 while keeping your inf pop to a minimum and most of your army should consist of armour. That way you have less MP bleed, but it just doesn't work out as it should. Always sitting on mass amounts of fuel as the game progresses.

Ok, thanks, I didn't watch the stream, I only saw the post in the forum.

Makes it even more difficult to find out now what was actually scaling and what wasn't then.

Yeah who knows how it was affecting the balance of the game, we should give it a few days I guess!