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Grens UP & G43s suck

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2 Oct 2019, 11:31 AM
#121
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


You already forgot how only 10 mp difference made cons utter trash compared to volks?
40 mp between generalist infantries is a MASSIVE cost difference.

No it did not. VG without ST44 where balanced vs Conscripts. It was 10 mp+60 MU.

And by that logic PG with 60 MP more should wipe the floor against all mainline infantry.
2 Oct 2019, 12:37 PM
#122
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 04:01 AMCODGUY
Grens are the best 240 MP unit in the game BY FAR. Look at the price difference between Grens and Rifles, 40 MP. Then look at the preformance difference, there pretty close even if Rifles have a little bit of an edge. Now look at the price difference between Rear Echeleons and Grens, also 40 MP but the preformance gap is huge.


...unless you charge them with Sov flame engineer (180 manpower)
2 Oct 2019, 12:49 PM
#123
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



...unless you charge them with Sov flame engineer (180 manpower)

Damn, when did they made soviet flamers free?
2 Oct 2019, 12:51 PM
#124
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


Damn, when did they made soviet flamers free?


it's not free - 60 munis for best results accompany with merge conscripts and watch grens die
2 Oct 2019, 12:54 PM
#125
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



it's not free - 60 munis for best results accompany with merge conscripts and watch grens die


Ok, lets sum up - you are using 2 different units, ability of 1 of them and muni upgrade for another one and... are surprised that unupgraded grens, that cost incomparably less next to that combination lose?
2 Oct 2019, 13:13 PM
#126
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



Ok, lets sum up - you are using 2 different units, ability of 1 of them and muni upgrade for another one and... are surprised that unupgraded grens, that cost incomparably less next to that combination lose?


It's not neccessarily what I meant: There are situations when cheap (180) vanilla engineers can hold their ground against mainline axis infantry, especially when defending behind cover. Grens are probably the only mainline infantry unit that has to be so careful around echeap engineer units (around rear echelons, too). If engineers are upgraded they will also gain the possibility to charge grens and usually win.

It's a reaction to posts which try to prove that grens are really strong in relation to their price (which is completely wrong).
2 Oct 2019, 16:30 PM
#127
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358


You already forgot how only 10 mp difference made cons utter trash compared to volks?
40 mp between generalist infantries is a MASSIVE cost difference.

But katitof the dude I was quoting said 40MP was nothing. I even pointed that 40 MP means 1/5 of the gren cost.

Also conscripts design differs from grens, which imo makes the costs harder to compare. But you are right though only 10MP makes difference
2 Oct 2019, 17:25 PM
#128
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 306

gren g43 have a very high moving accuracy allowing for a more offensive gameplay, the same time they are cheaper allowing 4 gren builds etc.

I personnaly think g43 are better then ppsh for cons any day, just saying they are useless isnt right at all, i personally use them all the time. They get used in tournaments too, and 2cp is very fast

Dont fix what aint broken

Merging 5 men grens with g43 would just make this game more stall, and 5 men isnt really an on the move upgrate (like g43) and would just make the game more stall and boring.
2 Oct 2019, 18:13 PM
#129
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Someone clearly does not play the soviets... engineers cost 170 manpower... play the other faction before complaining you dope
2 Oct 2019, 19:27 PM
#130
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 18:13 PMgbem
Someone clearly does not play the soviets... engineers cost 170 manpower... play the other faction before complaining you dope


My mistake (sorry) - but I love Soviets and play them regularly :) I'm a fan of Sov and always feel pity for ost when stealing their mgs and team weapons. I love how nicely they die to Soviet flame arty etc. And....

....I really feel that too many forum writers keep boosting allies while forgetting about balance and I feel I have to defend the underdogs sometimes to make the game less frustating for those who want to play against those boosted allied armies.

To the point - grens are the worst mainline infantry period. They have to rely on support weapons whether with or without g43s. The Soviet engineers just prove the point - a 170 manpower worth unit can stop them advance (1vs1) or make them fight from range for a good minute or two, effectively stopping them, and making them unable to cap. It's just ridiculous imo that there are players who seem to argue that grens are that good.
2 Oct 2019, 19:29 PM
#131
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

gren g43 have a very high moving accuracy allowing for a more offensive gameplay, the same time they are cheaper allowing 4 gren builds etc.

I personnaly think g43 are better then ppsh for cons any day, just saying they are useless isnt right at all, i personally use them all the time. They get used in tournaments too, and 2cp is very fast

Dont fix what aint broken

Merging 5 men grens with g43 would just make this game more stall, and 5 men isnt really an on the move upgrate (like g43) and would just make the game more stall and boring.


:hijack:
2 Oct 2019, 20:18 PM
#132
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

Well you can't really make that moving accuracy work because Grenadier squads are not particularly durable or cheap too reinforce, unless you blob them for efficiency.

I wouldn't want to see G43 turned into 5 men upgrade. I'd increase cost to 60 muni and give like -10% RA bonus and -10% reinforcement cost. Would make them a bit more cost effective on their own, while making initial cost higher.

You could keep it as it is however; an early game focused ability when muni is sparse.
2 Oct 2019, 20:34 PM
#133
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
I've made this statement a while ago, but it seems people have observed that rifles may be too good vs agrens now.

I think the excuse that "rifles dominate grens at close range anyways so it won't affect balance" is utter horseshit. You can place rifles in ambush position or naturally have an advantage on CQC maps where it's hard to pick a long range engagement. How would allies like it if grens had their max range buffed and say well cons lose at long range anyways, so it doesn't matter.

All the blame goes on whoever in the bal team thought they were so smart on buffing rifles instead of nerfing volks. And initial OKW mp didn't need to be decreased. Volks prepatch were very cost efficient vs rifles and cons and maybe struggled just a bit vs sections. But after the section nerf, a volk nerf wouldn't hurt OKW early game power much.
2 Oct 2019, 21:06 PM
#134
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

I've made this statement a while ago, but it seems people have observed that rifles may be too good vs agrens now.

I think the excuse that "rifles dominate grens at close range anyways so it won't affect balance" is utter horseshit. You can place rifles in ambush position or naturally have an advantage on CQC maps where it's hard to pick a long range engagement. How would allies like it if grens had their max range buffed and say well cons lose at long range anyways, so it doesn't matter.

All the blame goes on whoever in the bal team thought they were so smart on buffing rifles instead of nerfing volks. And initial OKW mp didn't need to be decreased. Volks prepatch were very cost efficient vs rifles and cons and maybe struggled just a bit vs sections. But after the section nerf, a volk nerf wouldn't hurt OKW early game power much.


Fully agreed - had a match that almost lost because of how ineffective assgrens have become against rifles. Again I fully agree that power creep has not ended yet. (Game is still one of the most balanced asymetrical games there are, so I love the patch team still :) ) But ost 4 men squads keep staying behind.
2 Oct 2019, 21:22 PM
#135
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

I've made this statement a while ago, but it seems people have observed that rifles may be too good vs agrens now.

I think the excuse that "rifles dominate grens at close range anyways so it won't affect balance" is utter horseshit. You can place rifles in ambush position or naturally have an advantage on CQC maps where it's hard to pick a long range engagement. How would allies like it if grens had their max range buffed and say well cons lose at long range anyways, so it doesn't matter.


IMO, Assault Grenadiers were never the best match against Riflemen for obvious reasons (unless your name is VonIvan). That said, I think Assault Grenadiers are still better off against Riflemen than before their buff when they had 5% worse starting RA.

I do agree that statements like "it doesn't matter unit X got buffed because unit Y is supposed to lose against them anyway" are not really constructive. What matters is if infantry is performing according to their timing, cost and scalability.
2 Oct 2019, 21:49 PM
#136
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned


Fully agreed - had a match that almost lost because of how ineffective assgrens have become against rifles. Again I fully agree that power creep has not ended yet. (Game is still one of the most balanced asymetrical games there are, so I love the patch team still :) ) But ost 4 men squads keep staying behind.


Though I absolutely hate the rifle change (and falls overbuff) all the other changes are very welcome and I still think this patch is an overall success.
2 Oct 2019, 23:01 PM
#137
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



Though I absolutely hate the rifle change (and falls overbuff) all the other changes are very welcome and I still think this patch is an overall success.


Haven't played fallas yet but maybe it is sort of shock troop treamtment for the allies - to feel what it is like to really have to adjust and be scared of some units' wiping potential (e.g. commandos have been with us for a while, partisans got buffed, ambush at cons are there and ninja style shocktroops with smoke nades have already been somehow accepted by axis). Allied players never fully understood what it is like to just get camo annihillated. Falls are still far away from it I feel :) I saw some tightrope tests on his channel and they didn't seem to be that great against similarly priced allied squads - sort of even or slightly worse than allied counterparts. But a lot of people complain I guess so we'll see.

To the topic - maybe the solution would be (DerbyHat suggested?) to add some other stuff to those g43s like sight buff or some sprint ability or maybe some coverning fire pin ability for munitions - just thinking.
3 Oct 2019, 00:14 AM
#138
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

I've made this statement a while ago, but it seems people have observed that rifles may be too good vs agrens now.

I think the excuse that "rifles dominate grens at close range anyways so it won't affect balance" is utter horseshit.


It wont effect balance between grens and rifles that much is what im saying. That doesnt mean its not effecting balance at all.

Im just more concerned about how it effects squads like pgrens, sturms, and agrens like you mentioned. All those squads benefit from closing the distance against rifleman, and that has now been made more difficult

Grens already wanted to keep rifles at a distance, so compared to those squads the matchup has changed a whole lot less. That's basically what im trying to say
3 Oct 2019, 00:54 AM
#139
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1



It wont effect balance between grens and rifles that much is what im saying. That doesnt mean its not effecting balance at all.

Im just more concerned about how it effects squads like pgrens, sturms, and agrens like you mentioned. All those squads benefit from closing the distance against rifleman, and that has now been made more difficult

Grens already wanted to keep rifles at a distance, so compared to those squads the matchup has changed a whole lot less. That's basically what im trying to say


I feel like Pgrens are still pretty decent against rifles but Sturms seem to have really been struggling against rifles in my more recent games. Can't comment on AssGrens because I havent used them recently.


Agree that the Grens Rifles matchup didn't really change. Grens got crushed at mid to close before and that didn't really change at all.


i really dont think its an issue. the g43 upgrade offers increased mobile firepower and better damage up close, 2 things grens struggle with. as an upgrade i think its fine, i believe the hang up is more in the fact that pgrens come sooner now so such an upgrade doesnt really have a place as pgrens do it better. changing the upgrade would require more of an overhaul.


I agree with this, PGrens being earlier really overshadows g43 grens in the aggressive mid range role. I'd rather get 1-2 pgrens to act as my mid range AI unit and keep grens at longer range with mg42s since that seems to work much better.
3 Oct 2019, 02:34 AM
#140
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1



I feel like Pgrens are still pretty decent against rifles but Sturms seem to have really been struggling against rifles in my more recent games. Can't comment on AssGrens because I havent used them recently


Yeah pgrens are probably the most okay of those 3 squads against rifles. Their starting target size and RA with vet are pretty good so they might be in a better spot
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