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How are Infantrysections since patch?

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achpawel
17 Oct 2019, 20:40 PM
#281
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 20:34 PMblvckdream
After playing some UKF in the last days there is one thing I really don't understand.

Everybody agreed that UKF being overly static was cancerous to play against. Now they made Infantry Sections completely incapable of attacking anything because they die too easily out of cover. So the problem of being static (something that nobody) liked has become even worse. So what is the point of it?


My understanding of the problem is this: you can't make emplacements too powerful cause they will become cancerous. On the other hand, when you retreat you leave them behind bcause you can't retreat them and that is how you bleed too much as uyour opponent will just destroy them and it is gg. Solution: make the new ability maybe refund more mp for dismantling them; if the maths and how quickly it happens is done right, it might be a nice way of building non overpotent emplacements but quick dismantling of them rather than loosing them might be a faction saver and allow for some cool UKF dynamics.
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    blvckdream
    17 Oct 2019, 20:59 PM
    #282
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    Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

    I don't like the idea of emplacements at all. UKF needs non-doctrinal indirect fire or smoke OUTSIDE the mortar pit. Maybe make pyro Sections more effective or give them something else so they can counter static play and MGs.

    Before the Infantry Section nerf it was meta to blob up Sections to wipe MGs, infantry etc. After the nerf you have to blob even harder because Infantry Sections are absolutely terrible at pushing enemies now. What is the point of it? On top of that there was also a weird buff to vet 3 accuracy which makes no sense to me because Infantry Sections struggle in early and not in late game.

    The best way to go about it would have been to slightly tone down Infantry Sections DPS from 30-35. They were never OP in close to mid-range anyway. That wouldn't have hurt their ability to push positions but still made them less cancerous as before. They also wouldn't be able to death loop MGs anymore because of the change and a moving them would be worse in general.

    I just don't understand why they were pushed into being even more static than before when everyone agreed overly static faction design is bad?
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    srider
    19 Oct 2019, 06:25 AM
    #283
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    Posts: 34

    jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 20:59 PMblvckdream
    I don't like the idea of emplacements at all. UKF needs non-doctrinal indirect fire or smoke OUTSIDE the mortar pit. Maybe make pyro Sections more effective or give them something else so they can counter static play and MGs.

    Before the Infantry Section nerf it was meta to blob up Sections to wipe MGs, infantry etc. After the nerf you have to blob even harder because Infantry Sections are absolutely terrible at pushing enemies now. What is the point of it? On top of that there was also a weird buff to vet 3 accuracy which makes no sense to me because Infantry Sections struggle in early and not in late game.

    The best way to go about it would have been to slightly tone down Infantry Sections DPS from 30-35. They were never OP in close to mid-range anyway. That wouldn't have hurt their ability to push positions but still made them less cancerous as before. They also wouldn't be able to death loop MGs anymore because of the change and a moving them would be worse in general.

    I just don't understand why they were pushed into being even more static than before when everyone agreed overly static faction design is bad?


    It seems that the idea of the latest round of changes is to encourage static play in the early to mid game. Initial manpower cost for Sections is reduced in order to speed up time to field for the first 3 or 4 units. This provides a window to build a sand bag fortified line during the first tech tier where you can then choose to transition into AEC/Sniper/etc. in order to break out the initial static position and into mid game. The early window to build a fortified position is vital as without bolster/weapon rack it is very difficult to push back if you lose early map control.

    Regarding the Vet 3 buff, this is to help sections fight off late game elite infantry units such as highly vetted ober/pgren as without the additional accuracy, they simply get run over even in green cover due to the high received accuracy bonuses on some of these elite units.

    I think both of these changes make sense in the perspective that they force a certain playstyle for the faction, but question still remains about whether or not they reduce strategic variety, and if they actually weakens the faction as a whole by deepening the weaknesses of the faction that many others have already highlighted.
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    thedarkarmadillo
    23 Oct 2019, 20:28 PM
    #284
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    Posts: 5279

    so i was doing some testing because of this thread and the results really highlight how weak tommies actually are

    in my tests sturms could attack 4 man tommies behind green cover across no cover and come out on top 9/10 times
    of those tests
    1 sturm model remained 1 time
    2 sturms remained 5 times
    3 sturms remianed 2 times
    4 sturms remained 1 time
    3 tommies remained 1 time

    in the win for the tommies 2 sturms dropped before the sand bags

    against volks tommies won 10/10 times
    1 tommy left 1 time
    2 tommies left 3 times
    3 tommies left 5 times
    4 tommies left 1 time

    once okw had a building however results flipped

    flame nade used:
    volks won 8 times
    it was a draw 2 times
    obviously due to the nature of the tests the flame nade test isnt conclusive to real test situations (not moving from the flames but i think its important for painting the picture anyways) also worht pointing out the squad stops moving to trhow the nade which exposes themselves longer while the tommies are still befitting from cover. i threw all nades at max range allowed but real game shows that rushing to cover then flame nading is also extremely effective

    2 volks remained 3 times
    1 volks remained 5 times
    both squads dies at about the same time 2 times

    stgs admittedly didnt make as big of a difference as i expected but still did impact the results and make the matchup "anyone's game"

    tommies 3 men remain 3 times
    tommies 2 men remain 2 times
    rommies 1 man remain 2 times
    volks 1 man remain 2 times
    volks 2 men remain 1 time



    now i only used okw because i feel their dynamic against brits is the hardest, due to a starting shock unit and volks ability to deny cover

    take from this data what you will and remember that RNG is RNG and i only did 10 tests a piece, however i do feel it represents the results seen in game

    granted, i feel like sturms being able to close SO reliably against tommies who are already dug in without so much as a flank is pretty damning in the matchup
    #stalinwept
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    Jilet
    24 Oct 2019, 16:43 PM
    #285
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    Posts: 556

    jump backJump back to quoted post23 Oct 2019, 20:28 PMthedarkarmadillo
    ...


    I think you should have made the flame nade test with bolstered tommies since they arrive almost at the same time. But good test anyways tho. Thanks!
    Grens are finally good.
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    Ritter
    29 Dec 2019, 16:09 PM
    #286
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    Posts: 255

    Permanently Banned
    I actually think they may be fine, but brits are too expensive. I never have mp.
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    KiwiBirb
    29 Dec 2019, 21:08 PM
    #287
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    Posts: 789

    I find that in the early game I am super starved of MP, but once I have my core infantry (4 IS, 1RE, 1MG) my manpower just keeps building up because they bleed so little due to on the field healing and only 28mp reinforce on a 298 (with bolster) worth of MP squad

    We could, I don’t know, reduce their initial cost and increase their reinforcement cost?
    Most of my ideas are probably bad, - but I try and share lots of them

    and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
    One can hope
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    SkysTheLimit
    30 Dec 2019, 05:49 AM
    #288
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    Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

    jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 20:38 PMthedarkarmadillo
    Where the hell does this "Tommies are squishy" bull shit come from?


    Was anyone saying they are squishy? Im too lazy to read through all 15 pages again, but I thought the complaints were about their weapons not target size
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    jackill2611
    2 Jan 2020, 14:36 PM
    #289
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    Posts: 246

    Remove tommys' minimal grenade range - at least they would be able to defend themselves better when in cover.
    UAUAsovietssoviets
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    distrofio
    2 Jan 2020, 15:02 PM
    #290
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    Posts: 2358

    jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jan 2020, 14:36 PMjackill2611
    Remove tommys' minimal grenade range - at least they would be able to defend themselves better when in cover.

    Only if you remove the friendly fire damage reduction grenades have.

    After that, you can play russian roulette with grenades all you want.
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    T.R. Stormjäger
    2 Jan 2020, 16:27 PM
    #291
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    Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

    jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jan 2020, 15:02 PMdistrofio

    Only if you remove the friendly fire damage reduction grenades have.

    After that, you can play russian roulette with grenades all you want.
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    Support Sapper
    2 Jan 2020, 19:37 PM
    #292
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    Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

    Dmg change or RA change, roll back 1 of those two.
    I think the RA back to 0.8 is the better choice since most of the issues people have with pre patch Tommy is model burst from 16dmg rifle, now it is gone.
    My mod with a bunch of new stuffs

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    jagd wölfe
    2 Jan 2020, 23:16 PM
    #293
    avatar of jagd wölfe

    Posts: 1660

    I think they need a buff but not dps. I think they should have less RA, or even straight up damage reduction to increase durability against aoe as well.
    Nothing too big, because the true achilles heel of ukf is teching.
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    jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

    They certainly hide from me.
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    thedarkarmadillo
    3 Jan 2020, 00:54 AM
    #294
    avatar of thedarkarmadillo

    Posts: 5279

    I'd like to see a mad minute ability stock that improves their ROF (and thus dps) at the cost of munitions. Bit more bite at a cost.
    #stalinwept
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    Mazianni
    3 Jan 2020, 03:43 AM
    #295
    avatar of Mazianni

    Posts: 785

    jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2020, 00:54 AMthedarkarmadillo
    I'd like to see a mad minute ability stock that improves their ROF (and thus dps) at the cost of munitions. Bit more bite at a cost.


    This tbh. Can never go wrong with adding more neat abilities to this game.
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    distrofio
    3 Jan 2020, 19:17 PM
    #296
    avatar of distrofio

    Posts: 2358

    jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2020, 00:54 AMthedarkarmadillo
    I'd like to see a mad minute ability stock that improves their ROF (and thus dps) at the cost of munitions. Bit more bite at a cost.

    "Mad lads time" Ability.
    Breaks a cup of tea in front of the squad and says loudly "LONG LIVE THE QUEEN" (Brithish version of oohraaa!
    Gives 100% RoF but decreases acc to 0 (Basically no one can hit anything)
    J/K ^_^
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    Doomlord52
    4 Jan 2020, 21:41 PM
    #297
    avatar of Doomlord52

    Posts: 960

    I think the "DPS Curve" over game-time needs to be adjusted down, specifically mid-game.

    In the early game, I'll agree that IS' are a bit on the weak side, and rely too much on cover bonuses. However, once they hit mid game, their early vet bonuses COMBINED with double-brens AND bolster results in a far too resilient and mobile DPS-blob. If the IS' had to stay still for a while to setup, and took ages to rotate (i.e. LMG-grens), that would be one thing; but their setup AND turn rates are incredibly fast, meaning that you can 'stutter-step' them extremely efficiently. In addition, once you have 3 or 4 of them in a blob (seemingly very common, especially as games get bigger), they can easily take MGs head-on due to this.

    Once players reach late-game, this DPS-blob is somewhat manageable for axis players, thanks to "anti-blob" weapons and their own vetted and upgraded infantry, so I don't think that needs to be adjusted.

    This could be achieved by delaying either bolster or brens (but not both); however, I'm not sure on how the exact implementation of this would work. Non-bolstered IS+Brens are fine, and Bolstered IS are also fine; it's the combination of all three.
    Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
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    Katitof
    4 Jan 2020, 21:50 PM
    #298
    avatar of Katitof

    Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

    jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2020, 21:41 PMDoomlord52
    I think the "DPS Curve" over game-time needs to be adjusted down, specifically mid-game.

    In the early game, I'll agree that IS' are a bit on the weak side, and rely too much on cover bonuses. However, once they hit mid game, their early vet bonuses COMBINED with double-brens AND bolster results in a far too resilient and mobile DPS-blob. If the IS' had to stay still for a while to setup, and took ages to rotate (i.e. LMG-grens), that would be one thing; but their setup AND turn rates are incredibly fast, meaning that you can 'stutter-step' them extremely efficiently. In addition, once you have 3 or 4 of them in a blob (seemingly very common, especially as games get bigger), they can easily take MGs head-on due to this.

    Once players reach late-game, this DPS-blob is somewhat manageable for axis players, thanks to "anti-blob" weapons and their own vetted and upgraded infantry, so I don't think that needs to be adjusted.

    This could be achieved by delaying either bolster or brens (but not both); however, I'm not sure on how the exact implementation of this would work. Non-bolstered IS+Brens are fine, and Bolstered IS are also fine; it's the combination of all three.


    You forgot about the part where tommies have pretty low acc bonus and 2 brens are only slightly better then 1 LMG42.

    And 4 of any long range unit can and WILL take down HMG frontally unless its in heavy cover.

    Also, tommies are extremely susceptible to vehicles, so use vehicles. Flame 251 specifically roflstomps them.
    jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
    Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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    jackill2611
    5 Jan 2020, 16:12 PM
    #299
    avatar of jackill2611

    Posts: 246

    jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jan 2020, 15:02 PMdistrofio

    Only if you remove the friendly fire damage reduction grenades have.

    After that, you can play russian roulette with grenades all you want.

    I can live with that
    UAUAsovietssoviets
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