su76 need adjustments

Set the barrage recharge time for the SU-76 to the same as the ZIS-3. 30 seconds.

There's no reason the barrage recharge should be 80 seconds long when you have to pay 35 munitions for the barrage, and unlike with the ZIS-3 you don't even really get very capable AT capability out of the deal.

At the very most, make it a 45 second recharge. 80 is pretty insane, but that's what it is in live.

Not from my experience, SU76 has additional ~0,9s wind down that Puma doesn't have. Per my understanding this means that Puma fires more or less 5 shots while SU76 fires 4. It is considerable ROF difference. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

According from what I gathered in the "coh2db unit stats" the difference is around 0.3 seconds. No big deal but you do make a slight point on it firing slightly faster. It does not necessarily make SU76 any less viable.

It can be used more often than the turret-lock shot, but the latter can be more rewarding.

It is situational really but barrage is handy in many situations, particularly even in team games.

Barrage can be used for many things. Late game to counter efficiently and quickly enemy AT guns that are focusing fire on another tank of yours. Quickly ensures the reduction of their AT capabilities including AI.

Aimed shot for Puma is good but against tanks with turrets, the ability is really useless since it locks the turret only and is easily countered. Only really useful against TDs like SU85 without turret and against units on the retreat 1 man squad, just to finish it off.

Penetration has nothing to do with smoke, also Puma has relatively high near-mid penetration for a LV which allows it to dive once you use the turret-lock on enemy medium tank.

Yes it has high near mid pen but that is not real a good way to go at all late game by getting close. "Turret lock" is pretty useless as mentioned since it can be easily countered the ability (against tanks with turrets) unless you have an AT gun support it to force it in some way no to rotate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to argue, but I wanted to highlight that Puma is a very strong light vehicle that benefits from 160 dmg at vet3 so applying the same to SU76 would be fair move. Vehicles would still be asymmetrical with different strengths, but SU76 would get similar dmg breakdown treatment with veterancy as Puma.

Yes Puma is strong. I just stated that SU76 is also strong. The benefit however is a difference in vet damage bonus acquirement.

SU76 should get the 160 damage Vet 3.

I didn't count, but SU76 indeed feels like the least used SOV vehicle, vet3 160 dmg would let it scale better and have more impactful damage breakdown.

Definitely.

Though I think what is the least used unit is the T3 Halftrack, next comes the SU76 imo.

Sorry that I didnt read your post carefully, but it seems that since last year's update the barrage of su76 is using the same dmg/aoe/scatter/cost data as that of zis3's. It has been a 6 shot zis3 barrage with 80 seconds recharging time then, so vet2 incresed damage has nothing to do with the barrage.

The barrage was free serveral patch before, but now it costs 35 mu, it is not fair for it to have such a long recharging time like howitzers.

The barrage get the extra damage and becomes more lethal at vet 2. I ca actually kill models with first shot while the one from zis can not.

At a costing about the same as grenades make the ability very cost efficient.

The barrage get the extra damage and becomes more lethal at vet 2. I ca actually kill models with first shot while the one from zis can not.

This doesn't really justify the massive recharge time for most of the SU-76's existence. The cost of the ability could also be increased via vet at that point, or the recharge, or the barrage ability replaced by a unique ability with the damage adjusted to compensate. A vet 0 or vet 1 SU-76 definitely shouldn't be having to wait over a minute to fire again (for 35 munitions)

This also goes to point out how dumb the damage veterancy is. This is damage that honestly should be in the main gun at start, especially if this is going to cause so many problems for its other core abilities.

This doesn't really justify the massive recharge time for most of the SU-76's existence. The cost of the ability could also be increased via vet at that point, or the recharge, or the barrage ability replaced by a unique ability with the damage adjusted to compensate. A vet 0 or vet 1 SU-76 definitely shouldn't be having to wait over a minute to fire again (for 35 munitions)

At vet 2 Su-76 get a -25% recharge bonus, tt also gets more range at vet 3. Before even touching the vet bonuses of the SU-76 one has to increase the XP value which is simply too low. The barrage ability is a cost efficient ability.

This also goes to point out how dumb the damage veterancy is. This is damage that honestly should be in the main gun at start, especially if this is going to cause so many problems for its other core abilities.

Not really, that simply show that when MOD team changes the AOE values of the unit they balanced it around vet 0 and not vet 2, (as many other things). Units should simply be balanced in all vet levels.

I am pretty sure one can make vet bonus damage only to autofire not barrage actually.

SU-76 one of SU units that you cuold see ones in blue moon, like old ostwind. While other rare units such as mortar and halftrack have their roles and could work, su-76 just out-of-meta waste of resources. It can't hardcounter mediums, it only can deal with LV on range. SU-76 compare to zis-3 just bunch of problems and have only few real pros:
1. It give you some AT
2. It have more defense against small arm fire and mortars than zis-3

But cons:
1. It delay your T4 on 75 fuel
2. It very squishy, it's just glass cannon with low damage
3. You can't fully rely on it

With current patch that locked heavies in T4, build su-76 is even worse than earlier. I don't know, IMHO it better totally erase this unit from game or make full rework. Any strong AT in soviet T3 make spam of su-76 and t-70, with weak AT you don't need this unit at all. You have zis-3 with the same abilities and much more better scaling into lategame than su-76. Vet3 zis will give you more than vet3 su-76.
IMHO i already suggested, that one of possible reworks of su-76 - it's make from it, what it was in reality - infantry support unit, not TD. Something closer to role of Scotch of StugE, but not TD.
Due it low armor it can't act like StugE and Scotch role is more closer to it.
1. Add "Fire Mode" like KV-2 have - barrage become free, but su-76 can't move and rotation speed decreased, recharge time of barrage is decreased. When mode is turn off, su-76 got penalty to moving like su-85 and HE barrage will go to cooldown (to prevent abuse when player will go to mode to faster recharge HE barrage or double barrages).
2. Regular HE barrage still costs resources when used not in mode
3. Add smoke barrage
4. Add timed ability to shoot to armor units, hitted unit will be lighten (ability like soviet baby at-gun have).

At vet 2 Su-76 get a -25% recharge bonus, tt also gets more range at vet 3. Before even touching the vet bonuses of the SU-76 one has to increase the XP value which is simply too low. The barrage ability is a cost efficient ability.


Not really, that simply show that when MOD team changes the AOE values of the unit they balanced it around vet 0 and not vet 2, (as many other things). Units should simply be balanced in all vet levels.

I am pretty sure one can make vet bonus damage only to autofire not barrage actually.

It seems that the vet requirement of su76 is the same of t70's. But I dont think su76 can vet really fast due to its lacking ablility to chase and kill vehicles. Cant be faster than a t70 at least.

SU-76 one of SU units that you cuold see ones in blue moon, like old ostwind. While other rare units such as mortar and halftrack have their roles and could work, su-76 just out-of-meta waste of resources. It can't hardcounter mediums, it only can deal with LV on range. SU-76 compare to zis-3 just bunch of problems and have only few real pros:
1. It give you some AT
2. It have more defense against small arm fire and mortars than zis-3

But cons:
1. It delay your T4 on 75 fuel
2. It very squishy, it's just glass cannon with low damage
3. You can't fully rely on it

With current patch that locked heavies in T4, build su-76 is even worse than earlier. I don't know, IMHO it better totally erase this unit from game or make full rework. Any strong AT in soviet T3 make spam of su-76 and t-70, with weak AT you don't need this unit at all. You have zis-3 with the same abilities and much more better scaling into lategame than su-76. Vet3 zis will give you more than vet3 su-76.
IMHO i already suggested, that one of possible reworks of su-76 - it's make from it, what it was in reality - infantry support unit, not TD. Something closer to role of Scotch of StugE, but not TD.
Due it low armor it can't act like StugE and Scotch role is more closer to it.
1. Add "Fire Mode" like KV-2 have - barrage become free, but su-76 can't move and rotation speed decreased, recharge time of barrage is decreased. When mode is turn off, su-76 got penalty to moving like su-85 and HE barrage will go to cooldown (to prevent abuse when player will go to mode to faster recharge HE barrage or double barrages).
2. Regular HE barrage still costs resources when used not in mode
3. Add smoke barrage
4. Add timed ability to shoot to armor units, hitted unit will be lighten (ability like soviet baby at-gun have).

I agreed that it should be a support-main, not at-main unit. Make vet0 barrage recharge from 80 to 45 then it should work, further adjustments may not be neccessary.

I do like your ideas about smoke barrage and fire mode, but perhaps an ability making su76 a immobile gunposition could be a death sentence, since it doesnot have self-smoke or a lot hp to save its ass from flanking attacks.

Su76 is and will always be a more mobile Zis with partial immunity to indirect fire.

If there is a justified buff to it, it should be target size, let it be hard AF to hit but enable them to take damage from small arms fire from the back (just lower back side armor).

No target size buff with 60 range td and 80 range arty. It become another scott like unit

No target size buff with 60 range td and 80 range arty. It become another scott like unit

But the key difference is that Su76, Have no turret, moving and shooting is simply not possible

Su76 is already cheaper and faster than stug, is a better mid game TD too.
Barrage is better than twp to infinity.

I think su76 is as good as it gets.
Like stug, use as fast or back tech to supplement.

Stug is pretty useless against sov and usf. While su76 works good against wehr and ok against okw without a pak 60 response

It seems that the vet requirement of su76 is the same of t70's. But I dont think su76 can vet really fast due to its lacking ablility to chase and kill vehicles. Cant be faster than a t70 at least.

It does vet to fast especially if an AT unit has the same XP value with an AI unit, the ability to chase down is irrelevant since XP is awarded for damage not for kills.

Su76 is already cheaper and faster than stug, is a better mid game TD too.
Barrage is better than twp to infinity.

I think su76 is as good as it gets.
Like stug, use as fast or back tech to supplement.

Stug is pretty useless against sov and usf. While su76 works good against wehr and ok against okw without a pak 60 response

SU-76 not even close to stug. Difference in cost only 15 fuel, but difference in battle stats cosmic.
Stug is medium tanks hardcounter. While SU-76 softcounter. It's like M-42 and Zis-3. What you will choose against p4 1 M-42 or 1 zis? I think answer is obviuos.
Difference between okw puma and su-76? Puma cheaper (70 fuel), heave excel mobility, smoke, turret, stun ability, 160 damage in vet. In lategame you can use it for suicide mitions to kill enemy rocket arty. Puma in good hands, could fight against medium, while SU-76 always need support (p4 turn on blitz and hello dead su-76). Any flanking to su-76 and it will be dead. SU-76 only have 10 more range and barrage. But they don't pay all these drawbacks.
I repeat again: it's big mistake to think that SU-76 is AT. From these design we got dead unit. Old su-76 was good due high ROF, cheap cost, free barrage and spam. But meta was changed. I never saw that pros build su-76 in champs. Stug was, but not su-76, even in teamgames (the last 2vs2 champ). Much more profitable way is zis, not su-76.
That's why we need to change role SU-76 to mainly AI support unit. When T-70 is fast, aggressive AI for close-mid combats, SU-76 must become arty support unit. 1 unit for players who like aggressive style and 1 for more defensive play. In these role it can have place, in role AT not.

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Difference between okw puma and su-76? Puma cheaper (70 fuel), heave excel mobility, smoke, turret, stun ability, 160 damage in vet.

Puma also have lousy accuracy and penetration and need to move very close or flank to become effective. In addition Puma's mobility is hampered by the the higher penalties when driving on rough terrain.

Su-76 is a cost efficient unit. There is reason is not used is same many other units. There simply better investment especially with change to Super heavies.

For comparison reasons and as an indicator,DPs range 50:

SU-76 firing on PzIV 17.4
Puma firing on T-34/76 13.4

Considering the difference in cost between a PzIV and T-34/76 the SU-76 is superior to the Puma vs mediums.

SU-76 not even close to stug. Difference in cost only 15 fuel, but difference in battle stats cosmic.
Stug is medium tanks hardcounter. While SU-76 softcounter. It's like M-42 and Zis-3. What you will choose against p4 1 M-42 or 1 zis? I think answer is obviuos.
Difference between okw puma and su-76? Puma cheaper (70 fuel), heave excel mobility, smoke, turret, stun ability, 160 damage in vet. In lategame you can use it for suicide mitions to kill enemy rocket arty. Puma in good hands, could fight against medium, while SU-76 always need support (p4 turn on blitz and hello dead su-76). Any flanking to su-76 and it will be dead. SU-76 only have 10 more range and barrage. But they don't pay all these drawbacks.
I repeat again: it's big mistake to think that SU-76 is AT. From these design we got dead unit. Old su-76 was good due high ROF, cheap cost, free barrage and spam. But meta was changed. I never saw that pros build su-76 in champs. Stug was, but not su-76, even in teamgames (the last 2vs2 champ). Much more profitable way is zis, not su-76.
That's why we need to change role SU-76 to mainly AI support unit. When T-70 is fast, aggressive AI for close-mid combats, SU-76 must become arty support unit. 1 unit for players who like aggressive style and 1 for more defensive play. In these role it can have place, in role AT not.

yes let's forget tech

The barrage get the extra damage and becomes more lethal at vet 2. I ca actually kill models with first shot while the one from zis can not.

At a costing about the same as grenades make the ability very cost efficient.

Do modifiers to hardpoint_01 affect accessory weapons then? Does this apply to any hardpoint or just hardpoint_01?

Do modifiers to hardpoint_01 affect accessory weapons then? Does this apply to any hardpoint or just hardpoint_01?

I did not check the editor to see how the have implemented the extra damage.

vet bonuses that increased damage though some times applied to unintentional to secondary weapons like the mg of the Puma.

Puma also have lousy accuracy and penetration and need to move very close or flank to become effective. In addition Puma's mobility is hampered by the the higher penalties when driving on rough terrain.

Su-76 is a cost efficient unit. There is reason is not used is same many other units. There simply better investment especially with change to Super heavies.

For comparison reasons and as an indicator,DPs range 50:

SU-76 firing on PzIV 17.4
Puma firing on T-34/76 13.4

Considering the difference in cost between a PzIV and T-34/76 the SU-76 is superior to the Puma vs mediums.

T-70 cost efficient unit? Yes and we see it in games.
T-34/76? Yes, we see it in games.
SU-76? How often you see it in games? After rework of ostwind it become more playable unit in games. After rework of SU-76. Where it is?
While combo p2+puma i see very often. I don't see in any high-level gaming strat t-70+SU-76. Or intentional su-76 production. Even as "AT of last chance" it don't work.

While other rare SU units - mortar and M5 have very narrow role and do they job. Give smoke and AI against teamweapons and AA against planes. SU-76 don't have any roles that SU don't already fill. AT against LV? PTRS penals or zis with cons at nades. AT against mediums? Zis. Barrage against teamweapons? Zis. With this patch and reduced cost of T2 - zis will be much more reliable choice neither su-76.

yes let's forget tech

I suggested earlier move Su-76 to T4 and make from it "Su-85 for poors". I don't mind move it into TOP tier and make it potent, but fragile choice.