su76 need adjustments

T-70 cost efficient unit? Yes and we see it in games.
T-34/76? Yes, we see it in games.
SU-76? How often you see it in games? After rework of ostwind it become more playable unit in games. After rework of SU-76. Where it is?
While combo p2+puma i see very often. I don't see in any high-level gaming strat t-70+SU-76. Or intentional su-76 production. Even as "AT of last chance" it don't work.

The argument that a unit is not being used that is not cost efficient does not hold much water. It was proven clearly by Dshk or even shock before the buff.

Luch needs a Puma since it extremely low AT, T-70 does not need a SU-76 to protect it.
I have provided you the stats that SU-76 is superior vs mediums tanks to Puma.

While other rare SU units - mortar and M5 have very narrow role and do they job. Give smoke and AI against teamweapons and AA against planes. SU-76 don't have any roles that SU don't already fill. AT against LV? PTRS penals or zis with cons at nades. AT against mediums? Zis. Barrage against teamweapons? Zis. With this patch and reduced cost of T2 - zis will be much more reliable choice neither su-76.

And that is why lowering the price of T2 for soviets makes little sense, it did not help make t2 built more attractive it help to back tech and making a zis instead of SU-76.

Once more the main reasons you do not see units like SU-76, Easy8, Sherman 76, 105 dozer, Panzer J is not that the units are somehow bad:
there are simply better options to invest resources in
Ostheer have little reason to invest in T3 units

SU-76 could do with 480HP so it doesn't get engine damaged by 1 Faust.

Currently a single Faust completely nullifies the thing allowing it to be finished by a P4 in 2 shots

Su76 is already cheaper and faster than stug, is a better mid game TD too.
Barrage is better than twp to infinity.

I think su76 is as good as it gets.
Like stug, use as fast or back tech to supplement.

Stug is pretty useless against sov and usf. While su76 works good against wehr and ok against okw without a pak 60 response

Nah noone would back tech to get su-76, 120 damage and 400 hp makes it hardly a good AT choice. Stug with 50 range is okay because it deals 160 damage per shot and has 560 hp with decent armor.

The argument that a unit is not being used that is not cost efficient does not hold much water. It was proven clearly by Dshk or even shock before the buff.

Luch needs a Puma since it extremely low AT, T-70 does not need a SU-76 to protect it.
I have provided you the stats that SU-76 is superior vs mediums tanks to Puma.



And that is why lowering the price of T2 for soviets makes little sense, it did not help make t2 built more attractive it help to back tech and making a zis instead of SU-76.

Once more the main reasons you do not see units like SU-76, Easy8, Sherman 76, 105 dozer, Panzer J is not that the units are somehow bad:
there are simply better options to invest resources in
Ostheer have little reason to invest in T3 units

Seems like su-76 is the only stock unit. Why can't it be buffed to be useful, like what they've done to wehr ostwind.

The argument that a unit is not being used that is not cost efficient does not hold much water. It was proven clearly by Dshk or even shock before the buff.

Luch needs a Puma since it extremely low AT, T-70 does not need a SU-76 to protect it.
I have provided you the stats that SU-76 is superior vs mediums tanks to Puma.

Puma and SU-76 BOTH hardcounter to LV and softcounter to mediums. Who have better chance to kill light tank puma or su-76? With puma you always can dive t-70 and kill it pretty fast, if SU don't snares or other AT support. While with su-76 you can't dive - bad pathing, no turret and lack of any escaping abilites make dive very bad and risky choice.

And that is why lowering the price of T2 for soviets makes little sense, it did not help make t2 built more attractive it help to back tech and making a zis instead of SU-76.

Once more the main reasons you do not see units like SU-76, Easy8, Sherman 76, 105 dozer, Panzer J is not that the units are somehow bad:
there are simply better options to invest resources in
Ostheer have little reason to invest in T3 units

And from all these list of units only su-76 stock unit, while other doctrinal. When you in last time saw StugE? Or OST clowncar?
I repeat again, if we want make su-76 playable unit in T3, we must change it role. OR we can just move it to T4 and make from it "su-85 for poors". Both ways potent.

Puma and SU-76 BOTH hardcounter to LV and softcounter to mediums. Who have better chance to kill light tank puma or su-76? With puma you always can dive t-70 and kill it pretty fast, if SU don't snares or other AT support. While with su-76 you can't dive - bad pathing, no turret and lack of any escaping abilites make dive very bad and risky choice.

Axis do not have "light tanks". All their light vehicles take damage from MGs with AP rounds...highest frontal armor is the luch with 55.

And from all these list of units only su-76 stock unit, while other doctrinal. When you in last time saw StugE? Or OST clowncar?
I repeat again, if we want make su-76 playable unit in T3, we must change it role. OR we can just move it to T4 and make from it "su-85 for poors". Both ways potent.

Doctrinal or not it is irrelevant my point is simple the argument that a units is not being built so automatically is not cost efficient does not hold water.

If the Ostheer T3 saw more use and SU-85 was less effective vs T3 units the SU-76 would shine.

Moving to t4 make little sense at it already a the Su-85 for poor people...

Seems like su-76 is the only stock unit. Why can't it be buffed to be useful, like what they've done to wehr ostwind.

Because the unit is already cost efficient.

If one wants to make something more attractive within a faction one has to create room for it, else one simply creates OP units like the AT Partisans that still get little use.

The unit is balanced and does not need buffs the problem lays elsewhere.

Axis do not have "light tanks". All their light vehicles take damage from MGs with AP rounds...

P2 not light tank? I know only one allied nondoc hmg with ap rounds - USF M2. I also know 2 non-doc axis HMG with AP rounds. One from them in T0.

Doctrinal or not it is irrelevant my point is simple the argument that a units is not being built so automatically is not cost efficient does not hold water.

If the Ostheer T3 saw more use and SU-85 was less effective vs T3 units the SU-76 would shine.

I don't know how less potent su-85 make su-76 more potent. I bet, you will see zis-walls or new shine of M-42, but not su-76. Strong su-85 is counterpart against P5. How you suppose to counter P5 with weak su-85? Or which unit must be hardcounter to it in your opinion? Also don't forget OKW P4 with stock elite armor and stock kingtiger.

The unit is balanced and does not need buffs the problem lays elsewhere.

When was discussion about ostwind and it place in game, why were buffed AI stats with AA, not only AA? WE could just increase it AA to current level and leave AI in old-level and say "The unit is balanced and does not need buffs the problem lays elsewhere". And i will bet, you will see it only in teamgames as counter to skillplanes. Why Pgrens were moved to T0? We just can't leave them in old place and "The unit is balanced and does not need buffs the problem lays elsewhere". Instead we got playable unit in ost roster.

P2 not light tank? I know only one allied nondoc hmg with ap rounds - USF M2. I also know 2 non-doc axis HMG with AP rounds. One from them in T0.

One does not need a Su-76 to counter a PzII even the T-70 counter it.

I don't know how less potent su-85 make su-76 more potent. I bet, you will see zis-walls or new shine of M-42, but not su-76. Strong su-85 is counterpart against P5. How you suppose to counter P5 with weak su-85? Or which unit must be hardcounter to it in your opinion? Also don't forget OKW P4 with stock elite armor and stock kingtiger.

We are drifting of topic now but the SU-85 has on of the best AT guns in the game and it is very effective vs all axis vehicles.

One could easily design it to counter Heavy tank effectively and medium tank less effectively.

For instance one can lower the accuracy.

When was discussion about ostwind and it place in game, why were buffed AI stats with AA, not only AA? WE could just increase it AA to current level and leave AI in old-level and say "The unit is balanced and does not need buffs the problem lays elsewhere". And i will bet, you will see it only in teamgames as counter to skillplanes. Why Pgrens were moved to T0? We just can't leave them in old place and "The unit is balanced and does not need buffs the problem lays elsewhere". Instead we got playable unit in ost roster.

You opening debates that are off topic.

You opening debates that are off topic.

Maybe don't use such arguments and just suggest your ways how bring unit in-game? You want make from SU-76 sniper-hardcounter against mediums? While Su-85 will be potent only against big targets like P5 and tigers?
While it possible way i also see some troubles with it - "hardcounter" su-76 against mediums in T3 will ruin OST gameplay and maybe OKW too (spam of T-70 and su-76 without T4). "Hardcounter"Su-76 in T4? If it will be cheap (like now) it will be spam, if we will increase price than we must changed all stats too (like armor, health). Armored su-76 with open top? Very funny...
Also before your answer - what means "hardcounter" for you? For me - unit that designed to fight against some kind of target with excel effectivness. Like sniper against teamweapons, ATG against armor, stug against mediums, puma against LV, rocket arty against blobs. Also don't forget about timeframe. Each unit good in right time.

SU-76 could do with 480HP so it doesn't get engine damaged by 1 Faust.

Currently a single Faust completely nullifies the thing allowing it to be finished by a P4 in 2 shots

If your su76 is in a position to be fasted and challenged by a p4 you are not using it right and should lose it...

Maybe don't use such arguments and just suggest your ways how bring unit in-game? You want make from SU-76 sniper-hardcounter against mediums? While Su-85 will be potent only against big targets like P5 and tigers?
While it possible way i also see some troubles with it - "hardcounter" su-76 against mediums in T3 will ruin OST gameplay and maybe OKW too (spam of T-70 and su-76 without T4). "Hardcounter"Su-76 in T4? If it will be cheap (like now) it will be spam, if we will increase price than we must changed all stats too (like armor, health). Armored su-76 with open top? Very funny...
Also before your answer - what means "hardcounter" for you? For me - unit that designed to fight against some kind of target with excel effectivness. Like sniper against teamweapons, ATG against armor, stug against mediums, puma against LV, rocket arty against blobs. Also don't forget about timeframe. Each unit good in right time.

This is becoming rather specialized and I will give a general answer:
Imo there two types of TDs should be created. The heavy TD meant to deal with Super heavy tanks like KT/IS-2 and the the medium TDs meant to deal with medium tanks.

Su-85/FF/Panther/M36 should be in that category while Su-76/Stug/JP in the medium TD.

One could increase the target size of super heavier and reduce the accuracy of heavy TDs so that they can hit the Super heavies but perform worse against mediums.

On the subject Su-76 there many changes that need to take place to create room for it. An an example one could:
1) Delay Ostheer T4/OKW Panther and Super heavies so that there more reason for player to invest in meduims
2) replace zis's vet 1 tracking ability with the barrage. This change would make both SU-76 barrage more attractive and mortar more attractive.
3) Replace Su-85's vet 1 tracking ability with the focus sight. There combination of focus sight and tracking is simply broken and now Su-76 bring something unique to the table.
4) Reduce the accuracy and ROF of the SU-85 and change it's vet bonuses to provide penetration bonus so that it perform better vs KT type of units

With these changes people would have more reason to invest in medium tanks and more reason to built medium Tds.

Axis do not have "light tanks". All their light vehicles take damage from MGs with AP rounds...highest frontal armor is the luch with 55.

MG42 AP rounds damage all Allied LVs to some extent. Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

Generally 80% of responses in this thread seem to come from alternate realities, are you guys sure you are even talking about COH2?

I dont see why su76 is so inferior to stug? It can be back tech to make use of its cheapness 8popcap! To make use of its 60 range and zis arty.

Stug is only useful against slow heavy armor tanks. Every med allies tanks will run rings around it, especially usf ones. You dont use stug when you see 60 TD hit the field. And the cp4 aura nerfed means it is worse off.

While su76 can take cheap shot against axis weak rear armor, should you float excess resources

Stug have 1 more hit hp, and 20-40 more damage. But su76 besides cheaper, is also faster, slightly better pen and reload on stock vet.

Would you want zisbarrage or twp?

This is becoming rather specialized and I will give a general answer:
Imo there two types of TDs should be created. The heavy TD meant to deal with Super heavy tanks like KT/IS-2 and the the medium TDs meant to deal with medium tanks.

Su-85/FF/Panther/M36 should be in that category while Su-76/Stug/JP in the medium TD.

One could increase the target size of super heavier and reduce the accuracy of heavy TDs so that they can hit the Super heavies but perform worse against mediums.

On the subject Su-76 there many changes that need to take place to create room for it. An an example one could:
1) Delay Ostheer T4/OKW Panther and Super heavies so that there more reason for player to invest in meduims
2) replace zis's vet 1 tracking ability with the barrage. This change would make both SU-76 barrage more attractive and mortar more attractive.
3) Replace Su-85's vet 1 tracking ability with the focus sight. There combination of focus sight and tracking is simply broken and now Su-76 bring something unique to the table.
4) Reduce the accuracy and ROF of the SU-85 and change it's vet bonuses to provide penetration bonus so that it perform better vs KT type of units

With these changes people would have more reason to invest in medium tanks and more reason to built medium Tds.

Very interesting point of view.
If we try to go this way, we also have some troubles:
1. USF and UKF don't have any other stock TD desides their top tier TD.
2. If you want remove tracking and decrease ROF of su-85, german heavy tanks (P5, tigers) should lost their blietzkrieg.
3. I don't know how removed barrage from zis make mortar more popular. It's different units. And again we return to part - what role should SU-76 have TD? IF you still barrage to SU-76, it means it still the same "good-for-nothing" unit, like today. If SU-76 TD, it need strong AT ability like stun or turret lock. TO be in part with stug and JP4.
4. If we delay heavies, when you will see them in 1vs1?
5. In which tier will be SU-76? In T3? It ruined all OST and OKW game (if SU-76 will be in category with stug and jp4). In T4? Hello all stats rework due top-tier unit.
6. We should up su-76 to stug and jp level or down stug and jp4 to su-76 level?

Much simple way - just change role of su-76 to AI support unit and don't make "big all-nations rebalance" of TD and heavies.

MG42 AP rounds damage all Allied LVs to some extent. Not sure what you are trying to prove here.
...

The T-70, Start and Valentine have little to fear from HMG AP rounds

The luch can take allot of damage and Puma get blown up.

Point here is simply one does not need a SU-76 to counter anything bellow a Stug.

The T-70, Start and Valentine have little to fear from HMG AP rounds

The luch can take allot of damage and Puma get blown up.

Point here is simply one does not need a SU-76 to counter anything bellow a Stug.

Then you mean that su-76 is kind of pointless in soviet t3, no place for it in current meta, since wehr player don't rush for a stug. That's why I suggest it needs adjustment.

Pgrens are good units but rarely used, so they get adjustments and you can see them more often. The same should apply to su-76.

Then you mean that su-76 is kind of pointless in soviet t3, no place for it in current meta, since wehr player don't rush for a stug. That's why I suggest it needs adjustment.

Pgrens are good units but rarely used, so they get adjustments and you can see them more often. The same should apply to su-76.

The adjustments needed have to do with other units that are too cost efficient and not the SU-76. Check post 53.

Su-76 suffer from the same issues Easy8, Panzer J KV-8 and Sherman 76 suffer. There are simply more cost efficient options.

The su76 doesn't need to have an always build role. As it stands it's a good emergency TD. It's got good pen and ROF and it's barrage means it isn't wasted when you get your proper AT out. It's semi niche but doesn't require a whole rework..
Make it deal 160 with vet and call it a day