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su76 need adjustments

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Vipper
18 Sep 2019, 09:50 AM
#81
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 09:11 AMblvckdream


SU 76 has less damage and slower reload so no I wasn't wrong. For me DPS is damage per shot/reload. If you want to factor in armour that is your choice.


DPS stands for damage per second and has a formula for being calculated and armor is part of that calculation, I have made these calculation and proven your claim wrong. It is not MY choice to include armor.

If you want to use own private interpretation of what DPS is, where armor is not factored in, you should probably find another name since it is confusing. You can call it :DPS according to blvckdream" if you want but you claim would still be wrong.

NO PLS STOP trolling. It is much simpler to admit you made mistake.
:)
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Vipper
18 Sep 2019, 09:56 AM
#82
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 09:44 AMrqd


A single su-76 can't even repel a panzer4. Allied mediums won't get a stug by directly charging at it, but with a panzer4 charging at a su76, if the player failed to snare pz4 and reverse in time, then su76 is detroyed. The axis player could kill su-76 by exchanging shots since su-76 has low hp.

And without a turret the terrible tracking system makes su-76 even harder to evade.

I can't agree with your opinion that current vanilla su-76 can hold off wehr t3 mediums. If that's the case, those good 1v1 players won't go straight for 2 zis guns when his opponent rush for ostwind.

Fun facts:
Panzer IV Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.1
SU-76 6.3 Accel: 2.3

Su-76 has the same speed and better acceleration than PzIV.

Stug
T-34/76 Speed: 6.5 Accel: 2.3
STug-G Speed: 6 Accel: 2.1

A T-34/76 has better speed and acceleration than Stug

So it actually easier to charge a Stug than a SU-76.

In addition:
Stug rotation 22
Su-76 rotation 32!!!

So ti actually allot easier to flank a Stug than to flank a SU-76
:)
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Vipper
18 Sep 2019, 10:04 AM
#83
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Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 09:00 AMblvckdream


SU 76 doesn't cost-effectively counter anything. Guess why no one uses it? As I said, on paper SU76 is ok but in actual game situations it's complete shit on everything but the most open maps. It has no gun traverse which makes pathing a nightmare. It constantly has to rotate. This makes it very vulnerable to getting fausted by infantry or dived by 222s, Luchs and Puma. Just not a viable unit when Zis3 is better.


The claim is also false the SU-76 has +-15 gun traverse the same as JP and Stug.
In addition pathing is irrelevant to gun traverse.
Finally SU-76 has a rotation speed 32 and by comparison to stug with a rotation of 22 and of JP of 20 is pathing is heaven.


"I can't believe people who play this game say stuff without checking stats. It's like they are living in an alternate reality. "
:)
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Vipper
18 Sep 2019, 10:13 AM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:08 AMblvckdream
Lmao ok Vipper. SU76 is amazing, you are right. Not only that, you are also the authority on what dps is. Needless to say you are also the ultimate authority on game design and balance and thus always right.

At least I do not right BS like "penetration is not included in DPS calculations" while instuling other at the same time.

Here from cruzz:

Total damage:
accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)*damage(cover)*penetration(range, armor)*burst bullets(range, moving)*(1+reload frequency)
Burst bullets:
1 if single fire, otherwise Burst duration(range, moving)*rate of fire(range)
:)
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Maret
18 Sep 2019, 10:17 AM
#86
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 09:56 AMVipper

Fun facts:
Panzer IV Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.1
SU-76 6.3 Accel: 2.3

Su-76 has the same speed and better acceleration than PzIV.

Stug
T-34/76 Speed: 6.5 Accel: 2.3
STug-G Speed: 6 Accel: 2.1

A T-34/76 has better speed and acceleration than Stug

So it actually easier to charge a Stug than a SU-76.

In addition:
Stug rotation 22
Su-76 rotation 32!!!

So ti actually allot easier to flank a Stug than to flank a SU-76

If we starting talking about stats, the good time to remember also next values:
1. Chance for TD deflect shot from enemy medium
2. Chance to hit on enemy medium while stay unmoved
3. Chance to pen
4. Amount of HP

Do you want some digits? I have them:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JAzh23Ps-mAyb9Z8xqmSI8sPWs5ZMd1YVIrqHIkoii4

Look into table "DPS 2"

DPS of stug against allies mediums without moving. Veterancy of TD and medium equal - vet0 TD vs vet0 medium, vet3 TD vs vet3 medium.
vet0 vet3
C-Mid Far-Mid C-Mid Far-Mid
Sherman 35,56 35,56 56,34 56,34
T-3476/Cromwell 35,56 35,56 56,34 56,34

DPS of Su-76 against allies mediums without moving. Veterancy of TD and medium equal - vet0 TD vs vet0 medium, vet3 TD vs vet3 (vet 3 OKW not vet 5 OKW) medium.

vet0 vet3
C-Mid Far-Mid C-Mid Far-Mid
OST P4 29,06 25,57 34,71 30,55
OKW P4 22,35 19,67 34,71 30,55
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rqd
18 Sep 2019, 10:20 AM
#87
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 09:56 AMVipper

Fun facts:
Panzer IV Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.1
SU-76 6.3 Accel: 2.3

Su-76 has the same speed and better acceleration than PzIV.

Stug
T-34/76 Speed: 6.5 Accel: 2.3
STug-G Speed: 6 Accel: 2.1

A T-34/76 has better speed and acceleration than Stug

So it actually easier to charge a Stug than a SU-76.

In addition:
Stug rotation 22
Su-76 rotation 32!!!

So ti actually allot easier to flank a Stug than to flank a SU-76


And what's the risk?

Igoring missing shots, t-34 charging stug has chances of deflect while stug is 100% to pen. Both of them has 640hp and 160dmg per shot and stug has better rof. Even if they stay in each other's range stug will probably win and if t-34 is snared it is done. Player with skills would hardly risk it.

Pz4 charging at su-76 is to some extend, risk-free putting in the same senario.

Don't get the point of this comparision. Stug's power will let people choose to flank it, but su-76 will be facing his foes upfront, since its power is not enough to scare them away.

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thedarkarmadillo
18 Sep 2019, 10:34 AM
#88
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 09:44 AMrqd


A single su-76 can't even repel a panzer4. Allied mediums won't get a stug by directly charging at it, but with a panzer4 charging at a su76, if the player failed to snare pz4 and reverse in time, then su76 is detroyed. The axis player could kill su-76 by exchanging shots since su-76 has low hp.

And without a turret the terrible tracking system makes su-76 even harder to evade.

I can't agree with your opinion that current vanilla su-76 can hold off wehr t3 mediums. If that's the case, those good 1v1 players won't go straight for 2 zis guns when his opponent rush for ostwind.

I don't know if you know this but the su76 has 50 more range than a p4 and more mobility. If you are getting snared no amount reasonable buffs is going to make the su76 work for you. Yall are completely ignoring that it shoots out to 60 and almost never misses... LITERALLY ANY SUPPORT AT ALL GUYS THIS GAME IS ABOUT COMBINED ARMS... Or at least it's supposed to be...
#stalinwept
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Vipper
18 Sep 2019, 10:51 AM
#89
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Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:17 AMMaret

If we starting talking about stats, the good time to remember also next values:
...

And you should remember the cost of the vehicles involved:
If you do the PzIV/Su-76 cost and T-34/76/Stug cost you will see that it is completely different.


:)
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Maret
18 Sep 2019, 10:52 AM
#90
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

I told it earlier and repeat again: SU-76 must become AI support unit with some AT. Now it's just hardcounter for LV and softcounter for mediums for 75 fuel price. It will save initial dewsign SU faction when units have 2 roles and give SU-76 ability to be playable unit, not just icon in T3 production.
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Maret
18 Sep 2019, 10:56 AM
#91
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:51 AMVipper

And you should remember the cost of the vehicles involved:
If you do the PzIV/Su-76 cost and T-34/76/Stug cost you will see that it is completely different.


Cost of stug against sherman and cromwell? And don't forget that OST could sit in T3 and play while with current patch you can't sit in SU T3 and wait until your IS-2 arrived. SU T3 don't counter OST T3 you need T4 for that to get T-34/76 and SU-85. WHile i agree that Su-76 shouldn't be hardcounter for axis mediums, but i also won't buy it as softcounter, i will prefer zis-3 in every possible situation. It scales so much better and with vet could give you power even against heavies, while SU-76 even in vet3 just babysitting glass unit.
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Vipper
18 Sep 2019, 10:59 AM
#92
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:20 AMrqd

And what's the risk?
...

One is risking a 350/120 PzIV to kill a 280/75 fuel Su-76 the other is risking a 300/90 fuel T-34/76 to kill a 280/90 fuel Stug. The risk reward is much better in the second case...
:)
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Vipper
18 Sep 2019, 11:00 AM
#93
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Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:52 AMMaret
I told it earlier and repeat again: SU-76 must become AI support unit with some AT. Now it's just hardcounter for LV and softcounter for mediums for 75 fuel price. It will save initial dewsign SU faction when units have 2 roles and give SU-76 ability to be playable unit, not just icon in T3 production.

Then it will have to be more cost efficient than T-70 and that would make it broken.
:)
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Vipper
18 Sep 2019, 11:02 AM
#94
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Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:56 AMMaret

Cost of stug against sherman and cromwell?

Ratio is still better.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:56 AMMaret

And don't forget that OST could sit in T3 and play while with current patch you can't sit in SU T3 and wait until your IS-2 arrived. SU T3 don't counter OST T3 you need T4 for that to get T-34/76 and SU-85.

Su-76 in numbers can counter Ostheer t3. It just plant mines sit back and out-range all t3 vehicles with he new accuracy while barraging any ATG.
:)
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Maret
18 Sep 2019, 11:08 AM
#95
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:00 AMVipper

Then it will have to be more cost efficient than T-70 and that would make it broken.


My suggestions were:

1. "Fire mode" like KV-2, where barrage becomes free and have fasten speed of recharge, but SU-76 becomes stationary with reduced rotation speed and got the same movemenet penalty like su-85 when mode is off.
2. "Regular HE barrage" for muni cost.
3. "Smoke barrage"
4. "AP shells" - timed ability that light up hitted enemy armor, like soviet baby-at gun ability.

In regular mode, have poor AT, closer to puma. As hardcounter for LV it will be enough. Want decent AT - build zis-3.

Abilities - becomes main roles of this unit.
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Maret
18 Sep 2019, 11:13 AM
#96
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:02 AMVipper

Ratio is still better.


Su-76 in numbers can counter Ostheer t3. It just plant mines sit back and out-range all t3 vehicles with he new accuracy while barraging any ATG.

If you look in my table - SU-76 still misses to axis mediums and don't ahve 100% chance to pen, while Stug always hit and always pen. And if you told about such "unusual strat", you can do the same witk OKW or even with OST (spam of mg-42 with pgresn with shrecks). Or 222 spam. 2 222 can kill 1 t-70 if you have enough micro to block his back.
I repeat again, if you trying compare stug and su-76 - result ALWAYS will be on stug side. SU-76 NEED changing of it role, NOT to be "soviet stug". SU have it's own hardcounter TD in T4. No need make 2 when 1 is enough.
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rqd
18 Sep 2019, 11:30 AM
#97
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Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:34 AMthedarkarmadillo

I don't know if you know this but the su76 has 50 more range than a p4 and more mobility. If you are getting snared no amount reasonable buffs is going to make the su76 work for you. Yall are completely ignoring that it shoots out to 60 and almost never misses... LITERALLY ANY SUPPORT AT ALL GUYS THIS GAME IS ABOUT COMBINED ARMS... Or at least it's supposed to be...


50 more range? Seriously, you are not checking the numbers, su-76 has max range 60 while panzer4 is 40, it is 20 more range.

And I was talking about failing to throw an AT nade to stop panzer4 from chasing your su-76 will have greater chance of losing your light TD than failing to faust a t-34 charging at stug. Not su-76 itself being snared.

It is a combined arms game. But players make mistakes, if you failed to moniter on your su-76 you would get it easily killed. Take snipers as example, they excel at taking down models at range, but can be killed if not taking care of. Su-76 is good when shooting a range, as effective as snipers? No. Problem is that it is not worth it to keep operating a su-76, it is not rewarding. It can't hunt down lights like puma, but you must keep an eye on it to prevent it from danger, since it lacks hp and has a normal sight range.

It was a "glass cannon" unit before. Now it is just glass, can't perform cannon's job, no one would like to use it.
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rqd
18 Sep 2019, 11:33 AM
#98
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:59 AMVipper

One is risking a 350/120 PzIV to kill a 280/75 fuel Su-76 the other is risking a 300/90 fuel T-34/76 to kill a 280/90 fuel Stug. The risk reward is much better in the second case...


Yeah but obviously in most cases pz4 has greater chance of taking down a su-76 while t-34 struggles to fight stug.
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Stug life
18 Sep 2019, 11:39 AM
#99
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:33 AMrqd


Yeah but obviously in most cases pz4 has greater chance of taking down a su-76 while t-34 struggles to fight stug.
ok start by putting them in tier 4
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
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gbem
18 Sep 2019, 11:45 AM
#100
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

The fact that we rarely see the su76 in tourneys and regular gameplay sorta indicates that this unit may not be in the best spot... the real question here isnt "should the su76 recieve some changes" but rather "what kind of changes does the su76 need"... this is in contrast to the puma or the stug which are a bit more common than the SU76

Outright AT buffs will mark the return of su76 spam... prolly a bad idea

Id go with a cheaper barrage or rework barrage to an AI mode akin to sherman HE
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