Conscripts--a la carte

I +1 the idea of 7th man model change. It would look so cool. Also they can modify that 7th man damage to better reflect his elite training.

Just passing by to remind you that conscripts have to fight from minute 1 against sturms and volks that bolt their mausers really fast. Lowering the conscript dps any more and they just won't pull their weight at all.

Cons should cost 200 considering the amount of upgrades you can buy them and how each one of those increases their relative price

To my understanding, if you were to use cons as a 'fighting squad' you will have to upgrade them correspondingly. Otherwise you can use them as 'cheaper' ostruppen to capture land and scout

There is thing called weapon profiles for reason.
Smg (with the exception of Thompsons) have a weapon profile that suitable for close range and long.

Its all easier to replace the ppsh with SVT if there is need for such an upgrade then mess with the ppsh

How about a different solution to the same problem?

Con PPSh upgrade gives 2 SMGs to give some extra close range damage, but also gives the squad a few Guards Mosin-Nagant rifles as well. Don’t Guards rifles have better on the move stats and are better at all ranges compared to standard Conscript ones? How many Guards Mosins equal 6 Conscript Mosins?

What I’m getting at is that you could make PPSh upgraded Conscripts equal to vanilla Conscripts at long range by swapping out some or all of their Conscript rifles in favor of the Guards versions. Now the upgrade can be a flat buff at close range while maintaining their effectiveness at long range without messing with the damage profile of the PPSh itself. It would also mean that an upgraded squad would lose long range firepower faster since they would retain the PPShs leading to a point where a half squad of three men would only have one effective long range rifle because two of them have SMGs.

Thematically it’s fine because it’s an “Assault Package” that could conceivably include training with the new weapons. More trigger time with any rifle or SMG would make you better with all rifles or SMGs so if they all got training on how to use the PPSh including some live fire time, even the four guys who didn’t get the SMGs would’ve still have benefited from the training and thus have improved marksmanship skills.

you can find weapon stat here:
https://coh2db.com/stats/

generally speaking imo it not good to mix bolt action and smgs.

Just passing by to remind you that conscripts have to fight from minute 1 against sturms and volks that bolt their mausers really fast. Lowering the conscript dps any more and they just won't pull their weight at all.

Cons should cost 200 considering the amount of upgrades you can buy them and how each one of those increases their relative price

+1

Hi all I know I throw this idea out now and again but with a new patch shaking up this and that I'd like to resubmit it for discussion

The idea: cons cost little and bring little more than capping power
You pay for additional bits and bobs to make them more what you need, at an additional cost. Not too unlike the PE of cohf

As always, the primary goal is discussion. Nothing here is set in stone, I'd like to hear what yall have to say

The basic template:
200mp
6 men, 4 rifles
Sandbags
Merge

Oorah becomes vet 1
...

I don't think this would work well because of how Cons perform across the different game modes. Having 200 mp cons would be too cheap in 1v1's. Players with good micro would cover the map with them. Also, making Oorah vet 1 would make it much harder for Cons to get to vet 1, at least in larger team games. Right now, you can use it sometimes to get outside the arc of MG's and not get suppressed. Not having it on maps like Crossing or Red Ball means that cons will spend even more time getting suppressed and retreating.

Moving some of their Vet 3 RA bonus to vet 1 would help. They bleed a lot of manpower before vet 3. Usually grens are starting to get their LMG's by that time so it wouldn't upset balance too much.

Decreasing the side-tech costs a little more would help also, and not significantly affect balance.

Lastly, most squads like Grens, PF's, etc, can still pick up a weapon after they do their upgrade. It would be helpful if a 7-man con squad could still pick up a weapon (while still making Mobilize and doctrinal weapon upgrades mutually exclusive).

like i said the 4/6 rifles was just an easy way to reduce their power to justify the lowered price but any way to attain that works for me
as for guards mosins if i recall right they have some silly powerful modifiers to account for the ptrs that makes them a bit much if applied to something like cons. i too thought that initially but vipper provided stats that led me to believe that might be a big no no

How about making them stat with 5 man and 5 rifle, then add a +1 man upgrade in support weapons base, another +1 man upgrade somewhere in T3 or 4.

I don't think this would work well because of how Cons perform across the different game modes. Having 200 mp cons would be too cheap in 1v1's. Players with good micro would cover the map with them. Also, making Oorah vet 1 would make it much harder for Cons to get to vet 1, at least in larger team games. Right now, you can use it sometimes to get outside the arc of MG's and not get suppressed. Not having it on maps like Crossing or Red Ball means that cons will spend even more time getting suppressed and retreating.

Moving some of their Vet 3 RA bonus to vet 1 would help. They bleed a lot of manpower before vet 3. Usually grens are starting to get their LMG's by that time so it wouldn't upset balance too much.

Decreasing the side-tech costs a little more would help also, and not significantly affect balance.

Lastly, most squads like Grens, PF's, etc, can still pick up a weapon after they do their upgrade. It would be helpful if a 7-man con squad could still pick up a weapon (while still making Mobilize and doctrinal weapon upgrades mutually exclusive).

That's actually the idea. The Soviet would be able to grab ground, but not really hold it as cons would be less effective than they are now. This would mean they would need something else to actually fight OR double up squads OR invest in cons to improve them. Of course this is just a concept and if needed the values could be adjusted but I'm not seeing how 200mp cons would break the game when 200mp pios or 210mp RE or 200mp ostroppen or 170mp combat engies don't.

That's actually the idea. The Soviet would be able to grab ground, but not really hold it as cons would be less effective than they are now. This would mean they would need something else to actually fight OR double up squads OR invest in cons to improve them. Of course this is just a concept and if needed the values could be adjusted but I'm not seeing how 200mp cons would break the game when 200mp pios or 210mp RE or 200mp ostroppen or 170mp combat engies don't.

This unit actually exists, its called combat engineer, costs 170mp, and currently has no combat value without flamers

This unit actually exists, its called combat engineer, costs 170mp, and currently has no combat value without flamers

Just curious, did you read the OP or.....

Yes. You want cons to be trash mobs to cap and then upgrade them as you go to fit your playstyle.

As I pointed out before, axis have competent to great combat units from minute 0.

Buying upgrades takes time and resources, so you will spend the early game hiding from the enemy because your units can't fight (currently regular pios, the weakest starting unit of the axis, can force out conscripts if they start the engagement at point blank range)

This in time would mean conceding the initiative of the early game to the enemy which would be devastating in any kind of competition, but specialy on a game like CoH2. By the time you could get your cons to the level of the unit axis can field from the start of the game they will upgrades of their own and more unit veriety (which means more roles covered).

In short, if you start from behind (said having no combat infantry in the early game) you will never recover from an enemy that constantly ups his game. That's how conscript builds worked before the patch that improved their dps, and even after that Penals rule the soviet meta

I +1 the idea of 7th man model change. It would look so cool. Also they can modify that 7th man damage to better reflect his elite training.

He could just have a different weapon, such as a PPSh-41, SVT-40 or maybe an 1895 Nagant Revolver. Or his weapon could change with vet, starting as a revolver and then becoming a PPSh at vet 3 like how the new Sturm Officer gets an StG44 at vet 5.

It can’t be as powerful though, since it’s supposed to be the non-doctrinal upgrade for Conscripts.

Political Commissars weren’t actually better trained though, and their role was more political and motivational rather than combat oriented.

That being said, the upgrade lowers reinforcement cost and boosts the whole squads damage while in cover while also adding another man. These additional abilities don’t really make sense as a single squad upgrade unless the 7th man is somehow special. Hence the Commissar model added. He doesn’t even need different stats for the name change and model change to make sense. Change nothing except for the name of the upgrade from “mobilize reserves” to “Squad Commissar” or “Political Officer” and change his model from just another Conscript to the model used for the Commissar and I’ll be happy.

I +1 the idea of 7th man model change. It would look so cool. Also they can modify that 7th man damage to better reflect his elite training.

That being said, the upgrade lowers reinforcement cost and boosts the whole squads damage while in cover while also adding another man. These additional abilities don’t really make sense as a single squad upgrade unless the 7th man is somehow special. Hence the Commissar model added. He doesn’t even need different stats for the name change and model change to make sense. Change nothing except for the name of the upgrade from “mobilize reserves” to “Squad Commissar” or “Political Officer” and change his model from just another Conscript to the model used for the Commissar and I’ll be happy.

The 7th han already has a unique model, the "Conscript Sergeant" model.

The 7th han already has a unique model, the "Conscript Sergeant" model.

I like it. I like it a lot.

Is that already how it is in the live game? If so, I’ve just not noticed it for some reason. Although, in defense of my ignorance, I must say that I haven’t been able to play the game over the last couple of weeks due to being sent overseas to Japan. No internet in my new place yet.

Yes. You want cons to be trash mobs to cap and then upgrade them as you go to fit your playstyle.

As I pointed out before, axis have competent to great combat units from minute 0.

Buying upgrades takes time and resources, so you will spend the early game hiding from the enemy because your units can't fight (currently regular pios, the weakest starting unit of the axis, can force out conscripts if they start the engagement at point blank range)

This in time would mean conceding the initiative of the early game to the enemy which would be devastating in any kind of competition, but specialy on a game like CoH2. By the time you could get your cons to the level of the unit axis can field from the start of the game they will upgrades of their own and more unit veriety (which means more roles covered).

In short, if you start from behind (said having no combat infantry in the early game) you will never recover from an enemy that constantly ups his game. That's how conscript builds worked before the patch that improved their dps, and even after that Penals rule the soviet meta

Just a quick question here.... How do the Soviet manage now with crumbly cons? Right! They have 2 tiers they can build from the word go to make their proper line infantry or support weapons. Nobody starts the game with only cons.

Geting a con and a penal would be 40mp less with the rough numbers proposed, that's 4x the colossal nerf that volks are getting. The game would be played more or less the same as now but cons would be cheap enough to fit into a build and IF you want more out of cons you can get it, if you just want something to grab territory and merge you can have that too. Or if you just want something to be a pain in the enemy ass you could pick and chose the upgrades that would align to that role. The idea is to make cons flexible enough to be the backbone of the faction they were supposed to be. Something that is useful no matter how you want to play and not JUST a sprinting AT nade thrower like they have been for literally years.

The 7th han already has a unique model, the "Conscript Sergeant" model.

I think a commissar model would be more iconic. Frankly speaking i hadn't notice this sergeant con. Maybe weapon upgrade from pistol to svt would be nice as squad vets up

I like it. I like it a lot.

Is that already how it is in the live game? If so, I’ve just not noticed it for some reason. Although, in defense of my ignorance, I must say that I haven’t been able to play the game over the last couple of weeks due to being sent overseas to Japan. No internet in my new place yet.

Yep, that's how it is, when you upgrade a unit to Mobilize Reserves, the 7th man uses that model. I didn't notice it at first either, usually you don't spend much time just looking at your troops!

I think a commissar model would be more iconic. Frankly speaking i hadn't notice this sergeant con. Maybe weapon upgrade from pistol to svt would be nice as squad vets up

Commissar's weren't as common as popular media would make you think, and they certainly were not one-per-squad, not even for Penal Battalions. The current model works fine in my opinion.