Conscripts--a la carte

Hi all I know I throw this idea out now and again but with a new patch shaking up this and that I'd like to resubmit it for discussion

The idea: cons cost little and bring little more than capping power
You pay for additional bits and bobs to make them more what you need, at an additional cost. Not too unlike the PE of cohf

As always, the primary goal is discussion. Nothing here is set in stone, I'd like to hear what yall have to say

The basic template:
200mp
6 men, 4 rifles
Sandbags
Merge

Oorah becomes vet 1

Various upgrades
Molitov
AT nade
Rifle production (+2 rifles, increased ROF on rifles)
7th man
Cover bonus
Oorah buff (defense modifier for squad?
Increased vet rate
Reduced ability cost
Reduced reinforcement rate

Other suggestions welcome

The idea is that you can pay little for extra capping power of that's all you want. But if you want more from your cons you can get more.
At the start for 30mp more you have the firepower of the new combat engies with 50%more health. But most importantly you have the ability to out produce the enemy for map control at the cost of quality of troops.
Base price I think for upgrades would be ~ 80mp and 10 fuel. Exact location in tech structures to be determined.

The beauty of breaking up cons into an a la carte model is that they become as much or as little as you want them to be. At 200mp they could always find a spot in your build as something to merge here or there or additional capping power without being a no Brainer.
Another benifit of the a la carte model is that you can easily tweak each aspect of the cons. Even now it's difficult finding the right spot for the current 7 man ability as it brings a lot to the table, but broken up it can be easier to fit in and price as each component is independent. If the 7th model is generating too much value too soon move it back a tier. If the extra rifles is too strong, increase the price.

Additionally with all these various different elements we can get creative with pricing. Say rifle production doesn't feel right being a weapon improvement and costing fuel, make it cost munitions. Something like 100mu and 80mp or you could also tie it to a tier. Build special rifle, get more and better guns! Unlock support weapon building and get the cover bonus or something. The world is your oyster!

Tldr make cons cheap enough to always have a place in build but modular enough to fit in however you want them to, at a price

Oorah buff (defense modifier for squad?

actually remove all of that,

the orrah buff might just fix cons, give it 20% RA during it and 30% CD reduction during it and they become good

Can we have the Stalingrad movie memes die already?

actually remove all of that,

the orrah buff might just fix cons, give it 20% RA during it and 30% CD reduction during it and they become good

They had a buff attached to oorah in the beta but it was Removed iirc. Personally I'd have it scale with vet and buff and take the role of a weapon upgrade. Instead of being constant it's as needed.

Can we have the Stalingrad movie memes die already?

Its not about the meme it's about finding a way for cons to fit in. Which they don't. I want them to be cheaper so they can always find a home in any build but still have them balanced in that regard. Soviet shouldn't be struggling for map control early game but holding it and plentiful but ineffective infantry is a good way to represent that.

Furthermore like it or not there is a certain degree of "meme" in this game. Things like live cons unable to actually do anything at all, without even the benifit of being cheap.
I asume you are referring to the rifle thing, that could easily be swapped with a lower accuracy model that has the dps of 4 men and the upgrade could be better rifles of it insults you so. The idea is lowering performance to match price so that they can actually find a home in a build as support. The means matters not me.

Hell if anything this design is LESS memey than live because you actually get the chance to turn them into more than just bodies to die if you so choose

I love the idea, cons strength IMO is modularity and adaptation, and this OP is headed towards it.

I would love to see the most important upgrades on T2 to encourage players to use it if they want a cons heavy strategy. On some upgrades there should be Fu costs, but not on all of them.

I said in other threads before that I would like molos to be free of muni cost to be used.

Hopefully this great idea come into shape and possibly implemented in the game in a couple patches

Add:
The +2 rifles upgrade was very clever. But how does doctrinal weapon upgrades interact with this?

A MP cost reduction on T3/T4 seems unnecessary if cons become such adaptable IMO. It's fair to say they would require a heavy tech investment but maybe it's better to enhance they raw paper than reducing its training costs

They had a buff attached to oorah in the beta but it was Removed iirc. Personally I'd have it scale with vet and buff and take the role of a weapon upgrade. Instead of being constant it's as needed.

let's be realistic they are not gonna rework cons, a buff to urrah might be possible

oorah dont need buff

oorah dont need buff

by buffing orrah we can buff cons without making them op or change their relation ship with gren

making it an offensive and semi defensive ability, the RA reduction gives them more durability during the sprint (and while not sprinting) and the CD works both offensive and defensive making them more effective after reaching the opponent

6 people 4 rifles, and again strange (there is not a single documentary case of this type) ideas because of stupidity Draftee - Penalties starting infantry unit design. The relic is no longer in the game, we continue to support this stupid design, try to pervert it instead of radically changing and improving the Soviet starting infantry design.

Modular concept can be tested but no one sane would give "no rifles" for meme Hollywood theme. You can achieve the same goal by making their performance weaker at 6 rifles if you need to and then replace whatever number of Rifles needed for "veteran" training.

Ex: before the whole 7man concept, i thought that giving them some Guards mosins at later stages would make them scale fair enough.

6 people 4 rifles, and again strange (there is not a single documentary case of this type) ideas because of stupidity Draftee - Penalties...we continue to support this stupid design, try to pervert it instead of radically changing and improving the Soviet starting infantry design.

Dont take it personal, it's just an idea. You can freely disagree.

I think it's more of a concept rather a real life representation, hard war times bring up hard situations and only the bravest can endure them. The no rifle soldier is both, the bravest and the poorest.

In the game it all gets summed up as numbers, aesthetics are often used to make the numbers easier to understand, that's why HVAP have such a shiny projectile.

Take note that no gun conscripts are not degrading the squad performance if the others wielding a gun have good stats, it's almost like a sneaky buff

Dont take it personal, it's just an idea. You can freely disagree.

I think it's more of a concept rather a real life representation, hard war times bring up hard situations and only the bravest can endure them. The no rifle soldier is both, the bravest and the poorest.

In the game it all gets summed up as numbers, aesthetics are often used to make the numbers easier to understand, that's why HVAP have such a shiny projectile.

Take note that no gun conscripts are not degrading the squad performance if the others wielding a gun have good stats, it's almost like a sneaky buff

I dont take personal accept this idea, most of all I am saddened by these are two starting infantry units. And no matter how they mocked them, no matter how they changed, whatever roles they came up with for them, there will always be a conflict between them and not one faction has such a stupid infantry design. Only the Wehrmacht had a similar concept but which is much better due to the fact that the choice of a unit does not deprive you of support or other units.

And we continue to come up with strange ideas that will continue the conflict anyway instead of radically changing and fixing it.

If the desired affect it to have low DPS from 2 entities one could add 2 non transferable PPsh.

In that case they would contribute little in long range fight but would also be difficult to be used aggressively since the squad would lose them upon taking causalities.

If the desired affect it to have low DPS from 2 entities one could add 2 non transferable PPsh.

In that case they would contribute little in long range fight but would also be difficult to be used aggressively since the squad would lose them upon taking causalities.

thats a nicer solution that would also allow for the cons to be better defenders for the maxim. it would be no good for offense but behind cover they would last long enough to make use of them if the enemy closed.

granted im not sure how that would work with various upgrades. would they keep the ppshs and only upgrade the rifles? what happens when they upgrade to the ppsh package?
the 4/6 rifles was just a means to reduce their power to allow them to be cheaper but any way to do that works for me.

Modular concept can be tested but no one sane would give "no rifles" for meme Hollywood theme. You can achieve the same goal by making their performance weaker at 6 rifles if you need to and then replace whatever number of Rifles needed for "veteran" training.

Ex: before the whole 7man concept, i thought that giving them some Guards mosins at later stages would make them scale fair enough.

like i said the 4/6 rifles was just an easy way to reduce their power to justify the lowered price but any way to attain that works for me
as for guards mosins if i recall right they have some silly powerful modifiers to account for the ptrs that makes them a bit much if applied to something like cons. i too thought that initially but vipper provided stats that led me to believe that might be a big no no

thats a nicer solution that would also allow for the cons to be better defenders for the maxim. it would be no good for offense but behind cover they would last long enough to make use of them if the enemy closed.

granted im not sure how that would work with various upgrades. would they keep the ppshs and only upgrade the rifles? what happens when they upgrade to the ppsh package?
the 4/6 rifles was just a means to reduce their power to allow them to be cheaper but any way to do that works for me.

I personally do not like ppsh/mosin combo for conscripts the DPS drop off (similar to VG) is simply too low. For the ppsh upgrade I would try 6 ppsh.

(On the other hand my own suggestions is to change them into a defensive infatry.)

I already commented this in a post about the Conscript Assault Package, but I think it apples here as a way to buff Conscripts but not make them too op.

I’d also like to see the 7 man upgrade not lock out other Soviet Doctrinal upgrades. Make Conscripts still able to get PPShs or SVTs or PTRSs if they get the 7 man upgrade. A slight nerf to the 7 man upgrade would be in order here to avoid cons getting too powerful at the late stages of the game, perhaps removing the in cover bonus. I’d also like to see the 7 man upgrade come with an icon change so it’s readily apparent to all players which squads have it. As it is right now a slightly damaged 6 man squad with all of its members looks exactly like a 7 man squad that has lost one man but has all of the other models at top health. Both would have the same unit indicator showing 6 models in the squad with about 85% of the health-bar full. My proposal would be to rename the 7 man upgrade from mobilize reserves to squad commissar or something like that. The upgrades squads could have a small star added under or above the crossed rifles and the extra man would use the commissar model. This visual change would help identify units that have the upgrade, use a model that is very cool but under utilized and also better explain why the upgraded squad has better stats compared to an unupgraded squad. The leadership of the commissar inspires the men to fight better and his political ties allow him to get recruits easier hence the lowered reinforcement cost. Just a thought.

I’d like to see the conscript Assault package PPSh upgrade be more like the Volksgrenadier StG44 upgrade, a universal buff at close to mid range while being roughly the same at long range, but not being super strong at close range either.

Change it to be:

40 munitions for 2 PPShs
Takes up all weapon slots.
Still allows for 7 man conscript upgrade, but no other weapon pick ups.

Adjust damage profile of Conscript PPSh to be similar but slightly weaker than Volks StGs at long and mid range, but slightly better at close range. This preserves the dynamic between Conscripts and other mainline Axis infantry, where Cons win at short range against un-upgraded Volks and Grens.

New Con PPSh damage profile should be equal to Con Mosin-Nagant rifles at long range just as Volks StG44s are the same as Volks K98s at long range, but also like Volk StGs they get better as closer ranges.

This would make Cons much more viable and basically emulate the effect that Volk StGs have. It’s a no brained upgrade if you have the munitions where the only downfall is that you can’t grab a dropped weapon. With only 2 PPShs it would make Cons better, but not op and as a doctrinal upgrade it would not be used to excess.

I’d like to see the conscript Assault package PPSh upgrade be more like the Volksgrenadier StG44 upgrade, a universal buff at close to mid range while being roughly the same at long range, but not being super strong at close range either.

....

There is thing called weapon profiles for reason.
Smg (with the exception of Thompsons) have a weapon profile that suitable for close range and long.

Its all easier to replace the ppsh with SVT if there is need for such an upgrade then mess with the ppsh

There is thing called weapon profiles for reason.
Smg (with the exception of Thompsons) have a weapon profile that suitable for close range and long.

Its all easier to replace the ppsh with SVT if there is need for such an upgrade then mess with the ppsh

With the exception of Thompsons......

So why not another exception for Conscript PPShs? I agree that an SVT upgrade is more suitable for weapon stat realism, but the PPSh upgrade is already in the game and the Soviets issued far more SMGs than they did SVT rifles.

And ya know what? I just like PPShs better on Conscripts anyways, regardless of stats. Lol A mixed weapon Conscript squad is the most realistic way they were issued and it still allows Conscripts to fit their role of being a long range-ish squad that beats other long range squads up close and beats close range squads at long range. If any squad should have mixed weapons like this then it should be Conscripts for both gameplay and historical realism.

With the exception of Thompsons......
...

Because thompson was originally intended as replacement of elite carbines only it was more of downgrade.

Officers use a different weapon