The State of Conscript Assault Package in the current game.

Another philosophical question...

Each other.

A husband and wife are stronger than a man and woman

and the enemy cant do the same?
or are you seriously gonna argue that 4 cons and a maxim is somehow better than 4 grens and an mg42?

A husband and wife are stronger than a man and woman

While 2 cripples certainly can help each other out, wouldn't it be better if the couple was healthy?

Please, put husband in T0

I too think that con PPSh package comes pretty late considering OST have Assgrens with 5x MP40 and sprint from the start if they pick such doctrine, no MU investment in MP40 whatsoever.

u could make the same argument with every doc unit tho ass enegier exist

u could make the same argument with every doc unit tho ass enegier exist

Ass engies don't have sprint. It makes a huge difference when a squad can close in immediately before you can apply a MP bleed / model drops at long range.

and the enemy cant do the same?
or are you seriously gonna argue that 4 cons and a maxim is somehow better than 4 grens and an mg42?

I am not sure what you are asking me. I simply explained Relic's point of view.

And if you ask building more than one type of unit makes things more interesting.

I use Cons a lot and I do sadly find the PPSH upgrade lacking and very situational unlike their allied and axis counterparts.
The idea seems to be that the package in most commanders is to replace elite infantry, because soviet without some form of elite infantry is hard to play.
How ever this does not work do to several characteristics of the upgrade, namely:

Late CP requirement compared to similar upgrades and units. I say just make this (and g43) for that matter available after the first building has been built or just at 0CP

high cost, 3 SMG for 60 muni for a situational upgrade unlike all the other mainline infantry upgrades of the same price that are generally a straight upgrade over non upgraded squads.

Weird weapon distribution, 3 of long range rifle 3 SMG. Unlike it's closest competitor the volk mp40 this seems like a weird thing to do. I say just give them 6 and tone them down a bit to compensate. This will make a more consistent DPS curve and make model deaths less annoying.

And if you ask building more than one type of unit makes things more interesting.

2 crippled units in synergy cannot beat 2 strong units in synergy

2 crippled units in synergy cannot beat 2 strong units in synergy

Are you really implying that maxim+cons gets beaten by volks+sturmpios?

Without lavanade its a straight SU win, with it depends if both squads get suppressed and if the opponent has flanked you its L2P

Thats not a bad upgrade, it just got powercrept by other unit buffs. As it stands there is literally zero reason why it costs so much and comes so late in comparison to what it does.

40-45 munitions and CP1 is really the highest price/timing you can have with it considering weapon crate comes at CP1 and Shocks at CP2

Are you really implying that maxim+cons gets beaten by volks+sturmpios?

Without lavanade its a straight SU win, with it depends if both squads get suppressed and if the opponent has flanked you its L2P

Not a chance that that is an SU win in any real combat situation. The maxim can't Supress 1 squad let alone 2 and the sturms alone can make short work of that crew.

At any rate that's 240+260+160mp vs 300+250mp if you factor in the handicap (I mean aside from actually USING the maxim) of unlocking the maxim. There is no scenario that I would chose a maxim and cons over sturms and volks, especially paying an extra 100mp for the combo.

And once the flame nade hits the field the maxim is as obsolete as a Kuble when the T70 hits so you are paying to unlock a unit, then paying for said unit knowing that it has a shelf life shorter than milk sitting in the sun on a hot summer day.

Let us disagree.

Not a chance that that is an SU win in any real combat situation. The maxim can't Supress 1 squad let alone 2 and the sturms alone can make short work of that crew.

I wouldnt ride the maxim meme so hard, it can suppress 1 squad frontally without problems, the new vet ability does help too.
An intelligent player would not mix the sturmpios and volks, thats granted, but an intelligent SU would also build sandbags with cons, merge and to say the least scout for the maxim.

Its hard to flank a well placed sandbag, cons under cover can be dangerous enough for a very expensive troop like sturmpios to inflict serious MP bleed.

If you scout an upcoming flank, you are always free to reposition and turn the soft defeat into a possible turnaround.

At any rate that's 240+260+160mp vs 300+250mp if you factor in the handicap (I mean aside from actually USING the maxim) of unlocking the maxim. There is no scenario that I would chose a maxim and cons over sturms and volks, especially paying an extra 100mp for the combo.

Its just unfair to 'include' T2 cost to begin with. You either build T1 or T2 to advance as SU, the difference is the units you make up with. Conveniently OKM has no T1 for volks and sturmpios, but when the discussion is between grens and cons, no one, i repeat, NO ONE, considers OST T1 into the mix.

If we remove T1 cost, we end with 260+240 = soviets500 vs okw550 = 300+250 wich is fair in terms of possible results

And once the flame nade hits the field the maxim is as obsolete as a Kuble when the T70 hits so you are paying to unlock a unit, then paying for said unit knowing that it has a shelf life shorter than milk sitting in the sun on a hot summer day.

we agree with the lavanade impact, but maxims in garrison are durable enough to withstand a single lavanade withouth dying, either replace it with another maxim or soft retreat it

we agree with the lavanade impact, but maxims in garrison are durable enough to withstand a single lavanade withouth dying, either replace it with another maxim or soft retreat it

nah that's cause lava nade is bugged, it applies damage only on the base floor

Let us disagree.


i wouldnt ride the maxim meme so hard, it can suppress 1 squad frontally without problems, the new vet ability does help too.

we have different results then when we use the maxims. it might stop something like sturms headed straight for it right down the middle, but it doesnt deal suppression fast enough that either squad should actually get suppressed. it would off a burst to reveal itslef then give enough time before the 8tyh burst it requires to suppress for the squads to peel off on wither side of its arc. this isnt an mg42 where a burst makes them eat dirt, it requires multiple seconds of shooting to apply enough suppression to actually do anything.
also i dont think its fair to add vet into this equation. if the ability was vet 0 like it should be mayne, but even then dont forget it requires a reload while the crew lets the enemy know its there.

an intelligent player would not mix the sturmpios and volks, thats granted, but an intelligent SU would also build sandbags with cons, merge and to say the least scout for the maxim.

Its hard to flank a well placed sandbag, cons under cover can be dangerous enough for a very expensive troop like sturmpios to inflict serious MP bleed.

now we are talking about a prepared defense. want to add in mine on the flanks too?
and what is going to cause the bleed? cons? if cons could cause bleed we wouldnt even need to factor the maxim into this because as is you would be far better with 2 cons than a con and a maxim...
if we are at a stage where players are bunkering down but sturms are still on the front i think its plenty safe to assume that flame nades are in play in this scenario...

if you scout an upcoming flank, you are always free to reposition and turn the soft defeat into a possible turnaround.

absolutely you are, if you spot an enemy headed anywhere towards your maxim your best bet IS to turn around and run away because cons wont be able to fight off either the sturms or the volks alone and you dont want to give the enemy 5 free fuel now do you?
thats part of the problem. as support cons cant do anything. the maxim being unable to do anything combined with cons not being able to do anything is EXACTLY why we have penals as is and t2 being deader than a maxim when frontally charged by a volks squad.
there is no teeth in a t2 build. there is nothing to stop the enemy or make them not want to close

its just unfair to 'include' T2 cost to begin with. You either build T1 or T2 to advance as SU, the difference is the units you make up with. Conveniently OKM has no T1 for volks and sturmpios, but when the discussion is between grens and cons, no one, i repeat, NO ONE, considers OST T1 into the mix.

ive always taken the 80mp into account when discussing grens. when it was just EFA i always allocated the weapon upgrade scaling to grens being slightly more to get them, but regardless against okw the 160mp in MANDATORY teching cost is plenty valid. thats 160mp. its no small amount and the cost is not compensated anywhere to accommodate it in the opening minutes. this is a big part of the problem with the live okw/soviet matchup. soviet has shit units AND 160mp to dump into getting other units while okw has great units AND bonus mp so they can start building those good units asap.
but on the topic of the comparison between grens and cons, notice that the maxim and cons (with teching) actually costs 80mp MORE than grens/mg42, without even picking apart that grens also come with a fuast? which would you pick given the chance? it in part goes to show how messed the soviet are when you consider that comparison... units cost the same and teching is higher but aside from durability are absolutely inferior

anyways thats 160mp you are paying, thats 2/3 the cost of another con squad or almost the entitrey of a CE squad that would otherwise be on the front (to add insult to injury, while you are paying the 160mp for the tech you are also not capping with your CE, meaning paying more and getting less in terms of units AND map control)
and thats 160mp that is takn into account when discussing penals ALWAYS and should here too

If we remove T1 cost, we end with 260+240 = soviets500 vs okw550 = 300+250 wich is fair in terms of possible results

but we shouldnt remove the tech cost because in the opening moments all mp counts and shelling out 160mp for a trash tier mg that cant actually do its job is a very important distinction. if the +10mp cost on volks is whats going to stop them from being super strong surely the 16x that into unlocking the maxim should count in the equation no?

we agree with the lavanade impact, but maxims in garrison are durable enough to withstand a single lavanade withouth dying, either replace it with another maxim or soft retreat it

not if were are playing with the scenario of sturms and volks vs cons and maxims. its 1 click and the maxim is running home (to wait for a 250mp medic upgrade) or its being deathlooped to leave the cons fighting alone.

many of the problems with okw balance lies in the massively powerful post release handouts they received. stgs and flame nades to be specific.
id pay 15mp (25 for preview price) more on cons to get a BAR and long range molitovs that actually throw when you click them

Its just unfair to 'include' T2 cost to begin with. You either build T1 or T2 to advance as SU, the difference is the units you make up with. Conveniently OKM has no T1 for volks and sturmpios, but when the discussion is between grens and cons, no one, i repeat, NO ONE, considers OST T1 into the mix.

It's not unfair, cause the cost of T1 for OH is 80/10.
The whole reason OH early game was buffed is to account for having to spend mp and time to build their tech as opposed of how all new factions play (straight main line infantry and other units, no build time on tech).

+60mp, Pio buffs and MG as T0.

On the contrary, SU has been "balanced" by having to choose from: map control (conscripts) or strong expensive units which are outnumbered early on.

They receive no compensation once WFA was introduced and changed the game dynamics. Because OKW lacked in 2 departments, snares + any reasonable mix of support weapons. Which only further cemented the whole match up against OKW as cheese (clowncar or maxim spam later replaced by Penals after 2nd rework and nerf of maxim spam). There's a reason why it has always been said that OH vs SU was "balanced".


-T0:

SU: CE 170 + Conscripts 240 + T2 (160) and you need to wait a second to get that +10mp (which you will wait by either lag and/or building in the boarder of the base).
OKW: SP 300 + Volks 250 + 90 (at T0) +10 if we mirror SU situation.

T+150mp:
SU: you are still waiting for +110mp to get a Maxim. You wasted 20s building tech. Conscripts is alone on the field.
OKW: both SP and Volk can defeat 1v1 a Conscript. You are already building a 2nd Volk.

T+110mp:
SU: You start building a maxim.

T+140mp
OKW: You are buidling a 3rd Volk.
SU: maxim was built like 10s before this.

So you know realise why you can't dismiss the cost of spending MP early on tech.

You are not fighting on equal grounds, because factions have different initial mp cost, different starting unit, only 2 waste time building their tech and "CASUALLY" the one with the least resources is the one with the "OP" units.

For me at least, the issue is the strength of the 7 man upgrade and not the timing of the ppsh's. By equipping them I'm giving up lower reinforce costs, mid and long range damage, more hit points, and faster vet.
The 7 man upgrade really outshines the PPSHs atm. Especially since you can use hit the dirt with it, a lone conscript squad can tank small arms for days.

Timing wise 2cp is fine for the PPSH package IMO.

It's not unfair, cause the cost of T1 for OH is 80/10.
The whole reason OH early game was buffed is to account for having to spend mp and time to build their tech as opposed of how all new factions play (straight main line infantry and other units, no build time on tech).

+60mp, Pio buffs and MG as T0.

On the contrary, SU has been "balanced" by having to choose from: map control (conscripts) or strong expensive units which are outnumbered early on.

They receive no compensation once WFA was introduced and changed the game dynamics. Because OKW lacked in 2 departments, snares + any reasonable mix of support weapons. Which only further cemented the whole match up against OKW as cheese (clowncar or maxim spam later replaced by Penals after 2nd rework and nerf of maxim spam). There's a reason why it has always been said that OH vs SU was "balanced".


-T0:

SU: CE 170 + Conscripts 240 + T2 (160) and you need to wait a second to get that +10mp (which you will wait by either lag and/or building in the boarder of the base).
OKW: SP 300 + Volks 250 + 90 (at T0) +10 if we mirror SU situation.

T+150mp:
SU: you are still waiting for +110mp to get a Maxim. You wasted 20s building tech. Conscripts is alone on the field.
OKW: both SP and Volk can defeat 1v1 a Conscript. You are already building a 2nd Volk.

T+110mp:
SU: You start building a maxim.

T+140mp
OKW: You are buidling a 3rd Volk.
SU: maxim was built like 10s before this.

So you know realise why you can't dismiss the cost of spending MP early on tech.

You are not fighting on equal grounds, because factions have different initial mp cost, different starting unit, only 2 waste time building their tech and "CASUALLY" the one with the least resources is the one with the "OP" units.

arguably 2 engineers with a penal + M3 will be superior to conscripts vs OST now post update...

2 engineers would be equivalent to a slightly superior cons squad while penals and m3s can deal the real damage... then transition to a conscript build in the mid-lategame when penals start to taper

arguably 2 engineers with a penal + M3 will be superior to conscripts vs OST now post update...

2 engineers would be equivalent to a slightly superior cons squad while penals and m3s can deal the real damage... then transition to a conscript build in the mid-lategame when penals start to taper

You could argue for 2CE opening into maxims but that was not what was been discussed before. It was specifically Con + maxim.

Yes, the change is a buff to CE against INFANTRY (they were actually more effective per model against vehicles cause they don't care about accuracy rolls) but after comparing the damage, it's not that big.
We are talking about basically equal DPS at close ranges and from then on it's 0.756-1.88 for the sum of all 4 models.

2CE + T1 strats are stronger (by a marginal small DPS increase), but not strong enough to replace Cons or see things like 3 CE strats.

I’d like to see the conscript Assault package PPSh upgrade be more like the Volksgrenadier StG44 upgrade, a universal buff at close to mid range while being roughly the same at long range, but not being super strong at close range either.

Change it to be:

40 munitions for 2 PPShs
Takes up all weapon slots.
Still allows for 7 man conscript upgrade, but no other weapon pick ups.

Adjust damage profile of Conscript PPSh to be similar but slightly weaker than Volks StGs at long and mid range, but slightly better at close range. This preserves the dynamic between Conscripts and other mainline Axis infantry, where Cons win at short range against un-upgraded Volks and Grens.

New Con PPSh damage profile should be equal to Con Mosin-Nagant rifles at long range just as Volks StG44s are the same as Volks K98s at long range, but also like Volk StGs they get better as closer ranges.

This would make Cons much more viable and basically emulate the effect that Volk StGs have. It’s a no brained upgrade if you have the munitions where the only downfall is that you can’t grab a dropped weapon. With only 2 PPShs it would make Cons better, but not op and as a doctrinal upgrade it would not be used to excess.

I would really like this actually.

However, they get really strong at vet 2 and their close damage would have to be reduced to compensate for the increased damage they do on approach

For me at least, the issue is the strength of the 7 man upgrade and not the timing of the ppsh's. By equipping them I'm giving up lower reinforce costs, mid and long range damage, more hit points, and faster vet.
The 7 man upgrade really outshines the PPSHs atm. Especially since you can use hit the dirt with it, a lone conscript squad can tank small arms for days.

Timing wise 2cp is fine for the PPSH package IMO.

You could make 7man Cons capable of equipping PPShs and Cons upgrades with PPShs already also capable of getting the 7 man upgrade.

See my above post of how I think the rest could be done. There’s no reason Cons shouldn’t be able to get both IF the PPShs are reworked to be more like Volks StG44s.