Redirect thread: faction teching and timing

Redirect thread for faction teching and timing, tech costs etc as it has spun out of control in another thread that was not related to this.

refer to the previous thread (from about page 9 or 10 onwards) for the discussion and arguments that have been made:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/96422/panzerfusiliers-need-adjustments

were are comparing to usf now

do u pay extra munitions for MOBILE FRP of the major ? Does it occupy a commander slot to have both recon and an off map ?

exactly, 1 faction has the option to either skip those upgrades to get to tank LV,LT faster or simply use doc unit like para ignoring upgrades , or even get the upgrades sooner than the other faction and have and stronger edge earlier

the other faction lack this flexibility and the upgrades are much more restrictive

Major is not an offmap. You need the unit on the map and can call in the arty only in a certain range around it. If you kill the major there is no arty until it is bought again (albeit relatively cheap).

Also:
All this faction feature nitpicking of you and others is really useless and does not even add anything to the discussion. If you want to do this, you need to take into account ALL the specific features of a faction at a specific point in the game and then argue why or why not the costs of these are prices okay or not.

One thing though that you can't deny about the timing:
While OKW does not pay more for the total tech tree then others, OKW pays less for the early game tech of weapon upgrades, nades, healing and first tech up (about 400 MP and 55 FU for OKW (or 75 FU with mechanized tech up and equivalent engineer upgrade) vs - don't have the exact sheet at hand - approx. 750 MP and 65 FU for USF). Now USF upgrades are stronger, but this is still big early game advantage, especially combined with Sturmpios and earlier fielding of Volksgrenadiere.

One thing though that you can't deny about the timing:
While OKW does not pay more for the total tech tree then others, OKW pays less for the early game tech of weapon upgrades, nades, healing and first tech up (about 400 MP and 55 FU for OKW (or 75 FU with mechanized tech up and equivalent engineer upgrade) vs - don't have the exact sheet at hand - approx. 750 MP and 65 FU for USF). Now USF upgrades are stronger, but this is still big early game advantage, especially combined with Sturmpios and earlier fielding of Volksgrenadiere.

again 1 u forgot the missing starting fuel, 2 u forgot that medic cost fuel, 3 anmbulance 10 fu and nades+weapons 30 fuel

so if okw gors for tier 1 and medics while usf goes for weapons upgrades and ambulance and tier 1

okw 70 fuel (the -15 from the start) usf 75 fu

the advantages usf : can upgrade 2 weapons one any unit, smoke nades , mobile reinforce and healing, can get upgrades earlier than okw

the advantage okw: get access to 3 units instead of 1

again 1 u forgot the missing starting fuel, 2 u forgot that medic cost fuel, 3 anmbulance 10 fu and nades+weapons 30 fuel

so if okw gors for tier 1 and medics while usf goes for weapons upgrades and ambulance and tier 1

okw 70 fuel (the -15 from the start) usf 75 fu

the advantages usf : can upgrade 2 weapons one any unit, smoke nades , mobile reinforce and healing, can get upgrades earlier than okw

the advantage okw: get access to 3 units instead of 1

The only thing I did not account for is 15 FU more for USF for the nades, the rest evens out or is already included in the price that I posted. Also it does not make sense too much that you leave out the nade tech price completely.

But you're missing the point that I make since we are talking about early game timing here. The perks of USF that you mentioned mostly come into effect from mid game onwards into the late game. USF is missing on quite a lot of MP (and a bit of FU) in the early game if they wanted to side tech everything to about OKW level, so they usually can't do that.

The only thing I did not account for is 15 FU more for USF for the nades, the rest evens out or is already included in the price that I posted. Also it does not make sense too much that you leave out the nade tech price completely.

But you're missing the point that I make since we are talking about early game timing here. The perks of USF that you mentioned mostly come into effect from mid game onwards into the late game. USF is missing on quite a lot of MP (and a bit of FU) in the early game if they wanted to side tech everything to about OKW level, so they usually can't do that.

no dude i counted it,

okw 15 from staring fuel, 15 for truck, 15 for medic, 25 for tier 1 = 70 fu


usf 10 for ambulance , 15 for nade, 15 for weapons, 35 for tier 1 = 75 fu

but yes i do agree in mp okw has an advantage

I wish they would take out the "free" Lt and Cpt, and adjust the tech costs accordingly. It makes every game against similarly skilled opponents into the same tired see-saw. You're behind while waiting for the first officer. The first officer hits the field and suddenly you have this power spike that gives you back a lot of map control. Then you likely fall behind when their armor comes out sooner.

I wish they would take out the "free" Lt and Cpt, and adjust the tech costs accordingly. It makes every game against similarly skilled opponents into the same tired see-saw. You're behind while waiting for the first officer. The first officer hits the field and suddenly you have this power spike that gives you back a lot of map control. Then you likely fall behind when their armor comes out sooner.

it does not come sooner tho

08/19 Tech cost:

OKW:
340/5 (300)

Trucks: 100/15
Deployment: 200/25-45-120
Medic/Engineer: 100/15

1 Truck, 1 upgrade, Flak:
700mp 190/210f (-5f)
2 trucks:
1000mp/250f
With both upgrades:
1100mp/265f


USF
400/20 (200)

Upgrades: 150/15
Medic: 250/10 (2/3 popcap)
Officers: 200/35
Upgrade: 50/20
Major: 190/120

Weapon, nade, ambulance, 1 officer full, major:
990mp/215f (-20f)
Including both MG and AT gun:
1190mp/250f
Full roster:
1240mp/270f


SU:
390/20 (170)

Medics: 250
AT nade/Molotov: 80/10 - 125/10
T1: 160/10
T2: 160/20
T3: 240/85
T4: 240/90

Medics, T1, T3, T4:
890mp/185f (-20f)
T2 with conscripts upgrades:
1095/215f
Full tech:
1255/225f


OH:

420/20 (200)

T1: 80/10
BP1: 100/40
T2: 200/20
BP2: 200/90
T3: 140/15
BP3: 100/25
T4: 100/25
Medic: 150/0/60 (muni)

Medic, T3 (Ostwind rush):
590/145 (-20f) (+60mu)
With T1:
670/155
With T1+T2:
870/175
T1 + T2 + T4:
930/210
Full:
1070/235


UKF

340/20 (280)

Bolster: 150/35
Weapon: 150/15
Nades: 100/10
Platoon: 180/30
Side tech unit: 100/15
Company: 280/115
Anvil/Hammer: 200/50
Medics: 30mu x1 or 200mp/60mu


Platoon + Company + healing (cenatur rush):
460/145 (-20f) (+30muni)
Bolster, nade, Platoon, side tech (or weapon), Company, healing:
810-860/205 (-20f) (+30muni)
Anvil or Hammer:
1010-1060/255
Full:
1160/270 +30 mun
Full + non meta healing:
1360/270 (+60muni)

the (-xx f ) is the staring fuel to get real cost u need to remove the said amount in the cost

it does not come sooner tho

08/19 Tech cost:


USF
400/20 (200)

Upgrades: 150/15
Medic: 250/10 (2/3 popcap)
Officers: 200/35
Upgrade: 50/20
Major: 190/120

Weapon, nade, ambulance, 1 officer full, major:
990mp/215f (-20f)
Including both MG and AT gun:
1190mp/250f
Full roster:
1240mp/270f




OH:

420/20 (200)

T1: 80/10
BP1: 100/40
T2: 200/20
BP2: 200/90
T3: 140/15
BP3: 100/25
T4: 100/25
Medic: 150/0/60 (muni)

Medic, T3 (Ostwind rush):
590/145 (-20f) (+60mu)
With T1:
670/155
With T1+T2:
870/175
T1 + T2 + T4:
930/210
Full:
1070/235

You said it doesn't come out sooner but then showed the 870/175 cost to start building P4's and Ostwinds versus a minimum of 990/215 to start making Shermans or Jacksons. Most of us like having both MG's and ATG's so it is 1190/250. Are you trying to tell us that 870/175 is more than 990/215?

You said it doesn't come out sooner but then showed the 870/175 cost to start building P4's and Ostwinds versus a minimum of 990/215 to start making Shermans or Jacksons. Most of us like having both MG's and ATG's so it is 1190/250. Are you trying to tell us that 870/175 is more than 990/215?

osther (like SU) don't get free stuff (officer FPR or flack gun) like other faction

that's why su and osther have similar cost 175, 185 (then their tank cost 90 and 120 so they come around the same time)


compare it okw and u will see the picture (as one could make the same argument switching ost for su and usf for okw)

btw the 250 cost is if u got for bot at gun , mg and LV , it's 230 if u go for at gun and mg only

osther (like SU) don't get free stuff (officer FPR or flack gun) like other faction

that's why su and osther have similar cost 175, 185 (then their tank cost 90 and 120 so they come around the same time)


compare it okw and u will see the picture (as one could make the same argument switching ost for su and usf for okw)

btw the 250 cost is if u got for bot at gun , mg and LV , it's 230 if u go for at gun and mg only

You're still deflecting. Even if I compared USF to OKW, it would still be 1190/250 versus 700/210 for the fastest route.

no dude i counted it,

okw 15 from staring fuel, 15 for truck, 15 for medic, 25 for tier 1 = 70 fu


usf 10 for ambulance , 15 for nade, 15 for weapons, 35 for tier 1 = 75 fu

but yes i do agree in mp okw has an advantage

Plus the 20 FU upgrade on the USF tier.
And the early MP advantage will make sure that OKW has the map control to reach their tech earlier in fuel as well. It's usually the midgame where USF starts to catch up.
It'll probably generally stay the same post patch, but let's see how much things will change.

You're still deflecting. Even if I compared USF to OKW, it would still be 1190/250 versus 700/210 for the fastest route.

learn to read for once

fastest route with upgrades and all :
okw 700mp 190f (-5f) okw p4 140 fu

usf 990mp/215f (-20f) usf sherman 110 fu

usf pays slightly more but gets 1 extra squad, better upgrades, mobile healing/reinforce and smoke

okw get's a more durable reinforce bunker

if okw goes for tier 2 and usf goes for both captain :

okw 700mp 210f (-5f)

usf 1190mp/230f (-20f) not 250, that's if u get one full unlock too(instead of the 2 cap)



so no usf tanks will still come sooner than okw and have better upgrade

Plus the 20 FU upgrade on the USF tier.
And the early MP advantage will make sure that OKW has the map control to reach their tech earlier in fuel as well. It's usually the midgame where USF starts to catch up.
It'll probably generally stay the same post patch, but let's see how much things will change.

i said tier 1 not full unlock and u can see i counted it in the advantage of okw

the advantages usf : can upgrade 2 weapons one any unit, smoke nades , mobile reinforce and healing, can get upgrades earlier than okw

the advantage okw: get access to 3 units instead of 1

i said tier 1 not full unlock and u can see i counted it in the advantage of okw

Fair enough, although it's more comparable if we go for full onlocks on both tiers. The USF split was done for the sole reason that USF is not locked out of MG and AT gun for the late game by high pricing.

Also for the advantage list: It's not much use for USF to get the side techs before their first tier, since first you need the officer to even out the infantry numbers (building a fourth Rifle early is usually not a good idea and rarely done as you will have too much infantry and bleed for mid and late game) and you first need to get the mun for weapon upgrades (which both factions usually do not have before the 5 min mark).

Also if should be noted that USF does not have smoke and nade on a single squad which was patched out for good reasons some time ago. They pay for the mobility of their ambulance by constant pop cap use and high fragility of the unit, even in early game.
OKW also has standard snares on every unit (Riflemen can sometimes be snare-less before the first LV hits the field, although this is not a huge problem when dealing with the Flak half track, only with more aggressive vehicles). OKW has the snare problem against USF only in the doctrinal dodge car.
Also OKW gets 4 units unlocked with the first HQ, as they can also build the MG from the main base. And they have the incendiary from the very start, so saying that USF could get the upgrades earlier than OKW is a bit far fetched.
If USF would research the nade at the very beginning (something that OKW gets, and the nade is not straight up better than the incendiary), this would nullify the start fuel disparity and increase the early MP disparity at the disadvantage of USF. Both Tier 1 would then come at about the same time, USF could get the medic slightly earlier (at the cost of more MP) and get the weapon upgrade again slightly later as OKW (plus more MP).

[...]

so no usf tanks will still come sooner than okw and have better upgrade

What do you mean by better upgrade?
For tank vs tank warfare, the P4 is straight up better. Sherman can have better AI if microed well with the HE shells. But upgrade? Both get a pintle, not sure if the difference is that huge between those.

What do you mean by better upgrade?
For tank vs tank warfare, the P4 is straight up better. Sherman can have better AI if microed well with the HE shells. But upgrade? Both get a pintle, not sure if the difference is that huge between those.

by better upgrades i mean for infantry not tanks

What do you mean by better upgrade?
For tank vs tank warfare, the P4 is straight up better. Sherman can have better AI if microed well with the HE shells. But upgrade? Both get a pintle, not sure if the difference is that huge between those.

Hey, look!
That sounds like Sherman not being efficient in tank to tank combat, but being more efficient overall including other things it can cover!



(regarding pintle, sherman pintle costs much more muni and does about 20% less dps at most but far range)

.....

i said CAN not that they should, and same reason the CAN skip said upgrades something okw can't

and i said already okw should get less staring mp

Hey, look!
That sounds like Sherman not being efficient in tank to tank combat, but being more efficient overall including other things it can cover!



(regarding pintle, sherman pintle costs much more muni and does less dps)

Efficiency is something different than performance.
But would you mind adding a more enriching contribution to the discussion other than this trolling?

Hey, look!
That sounds like Sherman not being efficient in tank to tank combat, but being more efficient overall including other things it can cover!



(regarding pintle, sherman pintle costs much more muni and does about 20% less dps at most but far range)

kat kat stop by upgrades i obv meant the infantry ones , as u pay for them