Panzerfusiliers Need Adjustments

Pff if anything I find them a bit op as they have the ability to counter most things, especially some maps where its an easy cutoff chokepoint. The first engagement of the game they are weak but things heavily change with the upgrades and vet to where they turn into monsters and start bleeding you like crazy, why it only gets harder and harder to bleed or trade with them. Hard to stop them with mgs as long as they somewhat spred the blob out as they tend to snipe the gunners pretty easily especially upgraded. 4x fusilers and double rakts all they have to make then just blob until Tiger. Also extremely hard to wipe late game even with heavy artillery because of the 6 men makes them more resistant than late game volks.

Fussilier strats seem just a little below par in live because of what you give up in the first few minutes with volks and how long it can take to upgrade even 1 or two squads with g43s. They are not as good as obers so you don't necessarily want them late either except as AT.

They probably need a slight cost buff to make up for OKW's lower starting manpower. A munitions cost change on g43s if you want to go further.

The shrek upgrade is a pretty good add though, they can be called in as AT instead of of a raketen so picking the commander late can still be useful, though it does seem like grand offensive and breakthrough won't be "meta" unless starting with panzerfusiliers is stronger than volks


Does anybody know the vet stats on Volks vs Fussiliers? like vet 3/5

I think Panzerfussiliers get higher accuracy but worse RA. They are good at fighting models down though due to the 3 g43s.

Does anybody know the vet stats on Volks vs Fussiliers? like vet 3/5

I think Panzerfussiliers get higher accuracy but worse RA. They are good at fighting models down though due to the 3 g43s.

Fussilier strats seem just a little below par in live because of what you give up in the first few minutes with volks and how long it can take to upgrade even 1 or two squads with g43s. They are not as good as obers so you don't necessarily want them late either except as AT.

They probably need a slight cost buff to make up for OKW's lower starting manpower. A munitions cost change on g43s if you want to go further.

The shrek upgrade is a pretty good add though, they can be called in as AT instead of of a raketen so picking the commander late can still be useful, though it does seem like grand offensive and breakthrough won't be "meta" unless starting with panzerfusiliers is stronger than volks

same vet as penal but 7% more reduced RA but not to the last man (which is basically more accuracy and RA)

So like penal to cons ?

if so give them penal rifle

Sounds good. Then take away the G43 upgrade and Panzershrek upgrades and give them a PTRS upgrade. Or don't compare units in a vacuum.

I'd be surprised if the balance team considers upgrading the starting performance of PF's to match Volks. They've been trying to avoid making "no-brainer" units and that would definitely make them a no-brainer. They scale better than volks and are fine as is.

Sounds good. Then take away the G43 upgrade and Panzershrek upgrades and give them a PTRS upgrade. Or don't compare units in a vacuum.

I'd be surprised if the balance team considers upgrading the starting performance of PF's to match Volks. They've been trying to avoid making "no-brainer" units and that would definitely make them a no-brainer. They scale better than volks and are fine as is.

no they are not fine they are overpriced, cons have better scalling than volks do they cost more even if they are worse ?

IMO sacrificing early spam power of volks for both a worse (for early) and more expensive unit is not right. Correct me if I'm wrong but in tightropes balance patch podcast Pfusi start got gutted by USF.

no they are not fine they are overpriced, cons have better scalling than volks do they cost more even if they are worse ?

Wow, just wow.

That is what I’m saying. If a unit is performing worse than its cheaper counterpart when its performance is most needed then why bother using the expensive one right ?

If you compare literally any infantry against volks you will come to that conclusion... The issue is less with fussies than it is with volks. You could have call in riflemen clones and volks would still be favored because volks are cheaper and there is nothing you would want mainline infantry to do they can't do.

If you compare literally any infantry against volks you will come to that conclusion... The issue is less with fussies than it is with volks. You could have call in riflemen clones and volks would still be favored because volks are cheaper and there is nothing you would want mainline infantry to do they can't do.

Actually that is true. But thats because the lack of the opener MG just like the USF both factions are either OP or thrash because of that. I get it it is because of the uniqueness stuff but it is also the reason why both factions are abyssmal to balance.

As a sidenote : It makes no sense OST the biggest army germans assembled has 4 men grens but manpower lacking OKW has 5 men volks. Actually it would be quite interesting what would happen if OKW had 4 men mainline.

no they are not fine they are overpriced, cons have better scalling than volks do they cost more even if they are worse ?

Haha care to elaborate on that?

i will explain my full argument:

1 we don't increase the base cost of an unit cuase of it's upgrades, we increase the upgrade cost

That's how it should be, but if you take a look at Obersoldaten, Paratroopers, Guards and Rangers, all these units perform rather poorly for their cost if you don't buy them any upgrades. They excell once their special weapons are handed to them. Powerful units like these can shift balance if upgraded early, so most of these units are locked behind CP or tech. PFs used to be locked behind CP as well, however a change was implemented that allowed players to field these units early so they could improve the variety and army composition and also vet early on. It was a good change. The source of the cost-performance issue you see is driven by locked-behind-tech expensive upgrade with which the unit is intended to be used.

2 the upgrades are priced fairly, the shreck make us lose at nades and pfusi g 43 is a mix of cons upgrade and g 43 upgrade (the g 43 are still worse tho than normal)

Upgraded early game vet 0 PFs win medium-long range (25) engagements vs vet 0 penals. For a rough comparison, vet 0 Penals performance is more or less equal to Rifleman with 1 bar at this range. This upgrade is powerful and afaik, gives very good moving accuracy. Keep in mind that Penals require teching and so do weapon racks. PFs upgrade is powerful and worth the price, no doubt about it.

3 the unit itself deals worst damage than volks and cost more, i could understand if they were better or costed similar but both worse and more expensive does not make sense

I partially agree with you. PFs could cost 250MP and the difference of the unit value could be added to the weapon upgrade cost, but then Volks would be overshadowed by PFs and this would turn into an uninteresting PF-spam. The intention of CP removal was to increase army composition variety and PFs being too appealing would have the opposite result - killing Volks. Prevention of other doctrinal infantry spam is done with either CP requirements or call-in cooldown, in this case it's a high entry cost.

The one aspect that you don't bring up is the snare platform availibility in the early game for OKW. For some players having access to the AT nade early on is a good counterplay to the M3 from Soviets. M3 has a very small window in which it can operate and if SOV players builds an M3 to bully Volks, OKW can now defend itself. This makes the enemy investment of 190MP and 15F a waste of resources. In that kind of scenario a 280MP unit is not a bad deal at all as within minutes it's going to transform into a more useful combat unit for the rest of the game.

they either need to : reduce the cost in mp as they don't perform for the price or a better base weapon to make them perform for their price

Problem with a better base weapon is that it would benefit the schreck AT upgrade and give PFs not only the top handheld AT weapon, but also some AI capability, which is what the balance team is trying to avoid based on past experience with Volks who could upgrade 1 schreck.

the argument that they have better scalling or they have versatile upgrade is worthless as we have unit with great vet and versatility that don't pay for it by being overpriced, and they are not even doctrinal

let's not forget u don't pay for nades and upgrades unlock for doctrinal units (and even then pfusi upgrade are locked behind tech)

the simple comparison is rifle, both have great vet and versatility, but one actually perform for its price while the other does not, and before u say "rifle pay for nades and upgrades", yes they do and pfusi are doctrinal and have draw backs (no at nades with shreck , unlike zook, no 6 g43, unlike bar)

Riflemen are better than unupgraded PFs while their initial cost is the same, that's true but it doesn't show the whole scope and situation which is generally higher reinforcement cost for Riflemen (28 MP Rifle vs 25 MP Volks and 25 MP PFs), cost of weapon rack unlock, etc. I don't want to turn this into a Volks vs Rifle comparison, but while vanilla Riflemen are more cost effective than vanilla PFs, Volks have always been more cost effective than Riflemen (up until double BARs), so it isn't uncommon that for the same price different factions get units that vary in performance. JLI for example are still way better than Pathfinders. Factions are asymmetrical so direct cost comparison does not always reflect unit power due to variety of tools available to different players.

Putting bazookas on Riflemen does not achieve anything but makes that Riflemen squad have bad AI while being not very good AT platform due to high armor values of axis vehicles. Please, note that any of the Superbazooka squads like Paratroopers or Rangers, that are more comparable to the Schreck squads, do not have a snare either.

so again why should pfusi cost more and be worse ?

btw pfusi vet is almost the same as penal

PFs need to compete for attention in your roster with Volks. In the mid and late game PFs are superior to Volks and can compete with upgraded allied infantry. They are a really good unit. The game pace is generally such so that stronger tools are available later in the game. PF, I believe, have poor unupgraded damage so that you need to build at least some Volks in the early game and to prevent powerful schreck blobs.

There are 3 options in current setup:
1. Build Volks and PFs to optimize firepower throughout the game.
2. Build Volks only and not benefit from the early snare and powerful late game inf. Benefit early
3. Build PFs only and have difficulties in the early game engagements. Benefit late

Option number 1 is the best from the variety and from power management points of view.

I prefer this solution of "early game unit drawbacks" over "units being locked behind CPs". Sadly, it's difficult to apply the same logic to the paratroopers as spawning airborne units (even without early access to weapon upgrades) would be problematic and benefit the USF player with insta-flank. Guards are possibly too versatile to apply this solution to them, Rangers could see similar tweaking to PFs with thompsons being locked behind some artificial requirements, Not sure about obersoldaten as these guys are nuts and stock.

TL;DR: I spent more time on this than I should. Thanks for a discussion.

Wow, just wow.

ur point ?

........

ober LMG is a much better upgrade than worse g43 and 1 more men, just for comparison, g 43 for green cost 45 mun and are better than pfusi and the cons upgrade give cd bonus in cover, bonus experience and reduced reinforce cost for 50 mun, u would have a point if the upgraed was soo good that it justified the base cost in mp, it is not

again they literally are 1 more men and worse g 43 for 90 muni


i think that was the point for the mod team, a substitute for volks , right now they cost too much for their dps , either reduced price or increase dps , if they want to make them different just copy paste rifle garand


and again the logic of being eraly so they need to be bad is stupid, do ass green, pathfinder and ass eng perform as bad a pfusi cause they come early ? they are not elite units, they are worse penals

Haha care to elaborate on that?

u could actually read the whole thread, i made it the page before this

ober LMG is a much better upgrade than worse g43 and 1 more men, just for comparison, g 43 for green cost 45 mun and are better than pfusi and the cons upgrade give cd bonus in cover, bonus experience and reduced reinforce cost for 50 mun, u would have a point if the upgraed was soo good that it justified the base cost in mp, it is not

again they literally are 1 more men and worse g 43 for 90 muni


i think that was the point for the mod team, a substitute for volks , right now they cost too much for their dps , either reduced price or increase dps , if they want to make them different just copy paste rifle garand


and again the logic of being eraly so they need to be bad is stupid, do ass green, pathfinder and ass eng perform as bad a pfusi cause they come early ? they are not elite units, they are worse penals

+1

so again why should pfusi cost more and be worse ?

You get the snare without any tech, that's a pretty huge bonus over volks

You get the snare without any tech, that's a pretty huge bonus over volks

most doc units get nades without tech (and really not worth the 30-20 more mp and worse dps)

most doc units get nades without tech (and really not worth the 30-20 more mp and worse dps)

Who's talking about nades? I said snares bud, and most doc squads don't get those at all....

Who's talking about nades? I said snares bud, and most doc squads don't get those at all....

cause most doc units are elite ? most doc unit comes with nades and upgrades already unlocked they just need to pay

I am alright with how they are at the moment as I generally mix them with Volks so I have early snares, sandbags, flame nades, regular grenades, and better scaling in the late game. I do think they will need a slight cost reduction though since Riflemen are being slightly buffed for some reason even after OKW early game received multiple nerfs in the original patch notes but also in 1.2. I think having PF's be 260 mp would be a good change.